Michael Grinder

SUMMARY

What was Michael Grinder's experience like when he first started developing NLP and modeling people?

Michael Grinder thought of himself as a member of the second generation of NLP. He wasn't one of the people who started NLP, but he did learn from people like Anthony Robbins. He says that the early days were like "the wild west of psychology" and went against what psychiatry and psychology knew at the time. He also says that this might have caused problems with some people in the field.

How do you come up with content that is interesting, attractive, and meaningful to others?

To make content that is interesting, attractive, and meaningful to other people, you should first know their style, values, and pain points. By putting the information in a way that fits the style of the audience, it is easier for them to understand and use. Getting the content out at the right time also helps get more permission and less resistance. If you don't like someone, you should walk away and look for someone else while wishing them well.

What advice can you give to a new manager who wants to use the house of communication to help their team quickly understand and trust each other?

A new manager should first focus on building their credibility by highlighting their knowledge, background, and resume. They should then use nonverbal cues like head movements to show that they are easy to talk to. They should also move their heads in addition to what they say to strike a balance between getting their message across and starting a conversation with the team. The manager should also remember that it takes time to build trust and understanding, so he or she should be patient during this time.

TRANSCRIPT

Marcus Cauchi: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome back to the Inquisitor podcast with me, Marcus Cauchi. Today, I genuinely have a delightful guest, Michael Grinder, who is a nonverbal communication expert. And for those of you geeks out there who are into communication and NLP. He's one of the very, very earliest players in this space. His brother, John and Richard Bandler created NLP in the very early days.

60 seconds background

Marcus Cauchi: And Michael, would you mind giving us 60 seconds on your background to set the scene before we go into detail?

Michael Grinder: I was smart enough to be, uh, born into the family where brother John was the co-founder of NLP. So I knew at birth, I was a genius already. My first career was as a classroom teacher, high school level, and then started, uh, working for John in a variety of capacities and now do about 60% education and 40% corporate.

Developing NLP in the early days

Marcus Cauchi: Excellent. Okay. So in [00:01:00] those early days, when you are effectively developing NLP and modeling people like Virginia Satir and, uh, various others. That must have been, uh, like the wild west of psychology, um, because you were going so against the grain with received psychiatry and psychology and everything else.

I mean, you must have been in the cross as of quite a few people.

Michael Grinder: I would consider myself the second generation of NLP. I wasn't part of the Icarus of John and Richard.

Marcus Cauchi: Right.

Michael Grinder: And I was sitting next to, uh, you would know him as Anthony Robbins.

Marcus Cauchi: Right.

Michael Grinder: And we learned at that level. So we were second generation NLP.

What is NLP

Marcus Cauchi: All right. Okay. So tell me this. What is NLP for those people who are not familiar with.

Michael Grinder: It's a understanding of the internal working of how you make decisions, perceive reality and the strategies that you use as you respond to [00:02:00] reality.

The house of communication

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So a, a model that you are famous for is the house of communication.

Would you mind talking us through that? Because I know it's fundamental to most of your work.

Michael Grinder: It is. And what it is is it's a living metaphor of taking all my understanding and trying to put it in one place. There's four floors in the house of communication. And it basically is the levels of professional development for yourself, as well as when you're mentoring others.

The first level is content. What's your content? What are you trying to say? The second level is nonverbals. How do you deliver it? The second level supersedes the first level. So if you have two people that have the same degrees coming outta university, Whoever can deliver that content that they both know is far superior as a communicator.

The third level is perception. It's timing. So you know how to deliver something. Do you know when to [00:03:00] deliver it? Cuz when will superseded, how and the last level it's called permission, should you even try?

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So I, I know permission is the, the highest level. But experiences taught me that unless you get permission, uh, in the sales process, in the coaching process, in the management process, you inevitably, uh, end up by creating either resistance or resentment or fear.

What permission actually means in the context of nonverbal communication

Marcus Cauchi: And, um, if you operate on a, a basis of permission, then people invite you in. Um, so let's talk about what permission actually means in the context of nonverbal communication.

Michael Grinder: Yes. And just before we do that, for those who don't believe that permission is important, we have teenagers that we can rent for a weekend.

And as you're living with them in a 48 hour time period, they'll be in a crisis. You'll know exactly what they need to be [00:04:00] heard, how to deliver it, but do you have permission to do it? So if you've ever been a parent, it has nothing to do with your power. It has to do with your receptivity from the other person.

So I see rapport is a little bit different than permission. Rapport is short term permission is long term.

How do you develop content that is interesting, attractive, meaningful to other people?

Marcus Cauchi: So rapport is short term permission is long term. Okay. Tell me this at the base level, uh, you've got content. So how do you develop content that is interesting, attractive, meaningful to other people?

Because if you're just producing content for yourself, it might be quite satisfying, but it's not necessarily help you communicate. I interviewed Dr. Laura Janusik who said that listening is the conveying of meaning. And I think without the content that people want to pay attention to, no meaning is transferred.

Michael Grinder: Yes. Yes. [00:05:00] So that's why you have to go up to the perception level. What is the style of the other person? What is the value of the other person? What are they in pain about that you can as, uh, assist them on. So if you know the other person, then you can package your information in a way that they don't have to translate.

It comes directly into their style.

Marcus Cauchi: Right. So if you are packaging, if you're putting the right content together and you're delivering it in a manner that they are receptive to and you time it appropriately. And then you have permission. You end up with minimal resistance.

Michael Grinder: Yes. You increase your permission.

I've been in situations where I could not get any permission at all. It wasn't a match.

Marcus Cauchi: Right. Okay. And if someone isn't a match, what's your advice at that point, walk away?

Michael Grinder: We have a limited amount of time and energy go find someone else, but wish the person well. [00:06:00]

What advice could you give using the house of communication in order to facilitate understanding and trust?

Marcus Cauchi: Of course. So in the context of a manager who is trying to coach somebody.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

Marcus Cauchi: Let's put, put some practical scenarios together. If I was a new manager and I was dealing with my team for the very first time. What advice could you give using the house of communication in order to facilitate understanding and trust quickly?

Michael Grinder: Credibility is what most people tend to look towards.

Initially, after you have credibility, then you go to Brené Brown and go with vulnerability. But that sequence and that order is extremely important. Now, what, how does credibility come across? Well, part of it is what's your knowledge? What's your background? What's your vitae? And people usually will know that then your nonverbals

Marcus Cauchi: The vitae?

Michael Grinder: Your resume.

Marcus Cauchi: Uh, alright. Okay. [00:07:00]

Michael Grinder: So normally your reputation precedes you or those people that are interested have looked you up. Yeah. Then when you're in front of them, now, your nonverbals come in the play example. If I hold my head still like this, my voice will come out flat. If I Bo my head, as I'm talking, my voice will roll and I'll be seen as more approachable.

So now I have to figure out when to keep my head still and that's using my content. But if I want you to talk with me and increase our dialogue, I've gotta Bob my head up and down. So you can almost use the Europe go Northern German for your content. Go Mediterranean for your dialogue.

Marcus Cauchi: Northern Europe field content. If you're trying to convey message, the meaning that's received as the one that matters.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

What causes people's communication then to be misinterpreted, misunderstood. And is it always on the, uh, the communicator or rather than the person being communicated with?

Marcus Cauchi: Not necessarily the one that you intended, what causes people's communication [00:08:00] then to be misinterpreted, misunderstood. And is it always on the, uh, the communicator or rather than the person being communicated with?

Michael Grinder: There's so many variables and Marcus, that's really, really a good point. Sometimes it's the sender, sometimes it's the recipient, and sometimes it's the actual content.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay.

Michael Grinder: That's why timing comes into place so importantly. The big thing I'd recommend, if you want them to really remember it, you've gotta go visual instead of oral.

Anything you want them to remember visual, double their memory versus hearing it.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So if that's the case, then in the context of this virtual world.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

Can you give any hints and tips in terms of how to be more effective in being visual?

Marcus Cauchi: What are the tips that you might pass on? Uh, to do that? Because again, just trying to draw on a notepad and hold it up to your webcam, probably isn't gonna deliver quite the [00:09:00] experience that you're looking for.

Can you give any hints and tips in terms of how to be more effective in that context?

Michael Grinder: so right now we're doing, if I understand correctly, an audio.

Marcus Cauchi: Yeah.

Michael Grinder: So we've taken away the visual. We know that homo sapiens, they take in about 65% of their information through their eyes. So if we wanted to deliver a better program, we'd have to go to a zoom without the audio, with go visual and audio and would absolutely increase the likelihood of a clearer kind of communication.

When I am doing the audio, pretend I'm doing the video so that I use my hands. Using your hands and free in your hands are so important. That's why when you talk by phone and it's resting on your shoulder, you don't communicate as well because your hands are tied up and you can't move your head. So using your body, even if they can't see you, [00:10:00] really makes a huge difference.

Marcus Cauchi: It's interesting. I I've really enjoyed the lockdown because I've ended up spending more time speaking to people visually than I have historically, you know, 35 years in sales and the telephone has been my stock in trade. I've genuinely loved this lockdown. It's been wonderful. I get sit on my sofa in my conservatory.

I get to see daylight, which is something I haven't seen for decades and I get to see people and I've certainly enjoyed that. What I've found a lot of people have struggled with is that transfer away from face to face.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

Why is it people have really made that struggle to make that transition to the virtual environment?

Marcus Cauchi: Onto the virtual environment. So again, why is it people have really made that, uh, struggle to make that transition well? for me, it's definitely enhanced my selling and my communicating and training probably cuz they don't have to meet me in person. Uh-

Michael Grinder: When we go from oral to [00:11:00] visual, that's just gonna increase all communication. So that's part of what you're saying. If you're going from phone to, they can see you, it makes a huge difference.

The second question that you're asking is why are people having such a difficult time with video conferencing? And to some extent, there's an actual phenomena that some people have identified as zoom fatigue. And part of it is you're not just seeing the other person you're seeing yourself. And most people when you're face to face, you don't see what you look like.

You only see the person that's the recipient. So now we're getting used to, oh, that's what I look like. That's part of it. The other part is, I don't know how to read you enough because I only see maybe your torso and you can't see me as much because I'm seated. Anytime we can increase. Be an in person.

The amount of nonverbals is absolutely available to both sides of the communication increases, but I [00:12:00] still would recommend highly when you do go with a video conference and you have a sticky situation, make sure you email to them ahead of time and then tell 'em page two, number three. So now you're breaking eye contact.

And you're looking at the information and it makes a nice difference if you can't do that and you're gonna show them something visual. Don't hold up something on a video conference and look at the screen, turn your head. So they'll follow your eyes and they'll look at what you're looking at.

Marcus Cauchi: Excellent.

And Simon Bowen is, uh, somebody who uses really powerful, uh, simple visual models. And he uses, uh, a whiteboard of some description either through Ecamm or, um, uh, the iPad and on zoom. For those of you who are not familiar with it, if you are using an iPad [00:13:00] and you log in using that and you click on share screen.

You can use a whiteboard function, so you can draw if you have, uh, a pen that allows you to do that. So you can use visual models and you can demonstrate what you're trying to express in visual form. And that certainly has been very powerful.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

How are you using the house of communication in order to help them progress and recognize the progression that they're making?

Marcus Cauchi: Tell me this. Um, I, if you're a coach, And you want to help someone develop themselves and advance their own, understanding their career.

How are you using the, uh, house of communication, uh, in order to help them progress and recognize the progression that they're making?

Michael Grinder: So I wanna first figure out do another content if they don't. That's what, that's the starting point. If they know their content, then they have enough free attention in their mind that they don't have to think about the next word they're gonna say.

So now we can focus on how to say that word. [00:14:00] Do I use my hands? Do I lean forward? Am I upright? Do I have something visual proximity with the other person? Do I blink rapidly? Do I keep my eyes open most of the time? How often do I bob my head? So you can go through all the visual, facial expression, audio, voice quality, kinesthetic, body, and then you're breathing.

So then you work on that. Now that's the second level. The third level is the timing. When do you really give the information that you wanna give? And normally you're trying to get the person to be in need of the information before you give the information.

The importance of breath

Marcus Cauchi: Let's just double back a little bit, cuz breathing is not something necessarily bad people pay good attention to.

And certainly in my experience, when people attend, they stop breathing and they hold their breath or they breathe very shallowly. And um, my video coach has been [00:15:00] really instrumental in making me aware of this together with my yoga teacher. And for those of you who can see me on the clip. Might be a bit of a stretch, but I can, I used to be quite supple, but, but, but the breath is so important and it really doesn't get the attention that it deserves because it can convey a lot of emotion, a lot of meaning, but also it will affect your physiology.

So do you mind spending a little bit of time explaining your thoughts around the importance of breath?

Michael Grinder: So if we have four categories of nonverbals, What you do with your eyes, your voice and your body. The fourth category breathing is the most complicated. The other three, what you do with your eyes, your voice and breathing,

we have 20 different patterns in our book that indicates this is what you do. You can learn each one of those by practicing for a week with breathing. It's a five year commitment.

Marcus Cauchi: [00:16:00] Five years?

Michael Grinder: Oh yeah. I'm still trying to remember to breathe through my nose instead of my mouth.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. At, at the risk of being (unintelligible) it really can't be that hard.

Can it? From birth?

Michael Grinder: Interesting that, uh, some of the, uh, native populations in the United States we'd call 'em American Indians. There was a, uh, study done by a, uh, famous person who portrayed them in 600 different portraits Catlan and he said to the average American Indian who gives birth when the baby is asleep, the mother looks over and takes the lips while the baby is asleep and puts, pushes them together so that the baby learns how to breathe through the nose instead of the mouth.

For the last four years, I make sure that I sleep on my side at night, take my hand, put it underneath my chin. So my lips are closed. So I breathe through my nose. Now, why do you wanna do that? [00:17:00] For those who wanna try tonight when you're laying in bed, open your mouth and notice how you breathing close your mouth and notice how you breathe.

If you breathe through your nose, you, you breathe lower.

Marcus Cauchi: Right? How interesting and what? Well, one of the things I notice and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone is that you tend to have a dominant nostril and then over time it shifts and then shifts back again. So raising your awareness of your breathing, not only is it interesting, but it's also quite difficult to maintain that concentration in the same way that meditation is difficult.

Um, because whilst it's simple, one's, um, mind tends to race off and get distracted. So how important is it in the house of communication model that we are fully present? Because I, I think one of the challenges studying sales and in management and coaching. The tendency is to be stuck in the [00:18:00] past or worrying about the future when you should be fully present.

So what advice would you give to people when they're coaching in order to be in the moment?

Marcus Cauchi: So what advice would you give to people when they're coaching in order to be in the moment?

Michael Grinder: I wanna suggest that being in the moment has been oversold. Okay. I'm gonna go with the other way and suggest that being, trying to be fully present, whether that be active listening, mirroring, and matching the other person's body,

I wanna strongly suggest all of that's important, but that's the basic level. The better level, if you wanna go to the perception level is notice the other person's behavior. Example: how often do they pause? How often do they blink? How far do they gesture? Once you have the baseline of what the person is communicating like, then the only part that is extremely important is when they shift out of that baseline and they either talk louder, they talk softer, they blink less, they blink more, they [00:19:00] gesture farther out than they normally do. Any shift away from the baseline, that's the single most important part to be attentive to you can't be attentive the whole time.

Marcus Cauchi: Right. Okay. That makes perfect sense. When I was studying the work of Paul Eckman and looking at deception, one of the really interesting observations is: after the meaning of a question was conveyed, if within seven seconds you had three or more points of interest, which were deviations from the baseline, it was generally a leakage of the truth.

Uh, it wasn't leakage to section, and it seems to be a similar pattern here, uh, that what you're looking for are those, uh, slight shifts. Away from the norm that gives you an indication that this is something worthy of further investigation.

Michael Grinder: Yes.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So as we go through the different levels, [00:20:00] so go through content, we go through the, how you deliver through nonverbals.

What do you have to do in order to earn permission from people? how do you know if you have it?

Marcus Cauchi: Then the perception are now into permission. Let's dig a little bit deeper into what permission is and how you earn it. Because like, I don't think, I think it's dangerous that someone might start to try and demand it for example.

Michael Grinder: I got a teena- I got a teenager for the weekend.

Marcus Cauchi: Absolutely. So that's the antithesis of getting permission.

Yeah. It's like trying to demand respect. What do you have to do in order to earn permission from people?

Michael Grinder: And just before we answer that, I think the even better question is how do you know if you have it? Because one of the things we know about sales is if we put people on a continuum, firm being highly accommodating to being highly challenging, the person who's highly accommodating may [00:21:00] actually have their client ready to sign the paper.

Shake hands make the deal, and they're still trying to build rapport. So now the timing is off. You have the other people that are highly challenging and what they do is they literally try to confuse and if I may insult the person, then they do a rapport in terms of rebuild and then they move on. So the question is, how do you know when you have enough permission to let's move it?

So the suggestion is this: if someone is breathing low, I have high permission. If someone is breathing high, I have low permission. Uh, that's my starting point.

How does one observe that through a video call?

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So how does one observe that through a video call?

Michael Grinder: It's harder on a video call than it is in person. And it's almost really difficult over the phone because you've lost [00:22:00] 65% of all our sensory input comes in through our eyes.

So

Marcus Cauchi: okay.

Michael Grinder: As I watch you, and then this is what the people that are gonna be listening to this can't do because you and I can see each other. I've noticed the frequency of when you bob your head, you have a beautiful, rolling voice. I wish I had your voice better. Great voice better. Great audio voice better.

So as I listen to you roll up and down, every time you tend to go a little more still, and your voice is flat, it's usually an indication, I have said something that intrigues you.

Marcus Cauchi: Right. Okay. That makes sense.

Michael Grinder: Like you just did then.

Marcus Cauchi: A- absolutely. I, I noticed it. I just felt like I was being scrutinized my, my next question then comes to intent because I certainly in my line of work.

Uh, for the last 20 years or so, I've grown to [00:23:00] realize how critical it is that you come to a conversation with the right intent. And that part of the problem, I think is often sellers are quite selfish. They're self orientated. They're worried about hitting their target, making their quota, getting this deal.

And that is selfish. And I think the best communicators I've ever met are really focused on paying attention. And my friend (unintelligible) Aaron came up with this lovely line. It's more than a line. Attention is a currency. You pay attention and you need to make that investment of attention where you turn up to serve to see if you can help.

If you can then are you the best person to, uh, to help them to serve them? And the people who really adopt that are attractive to others because they don't feel [00:24:00] threatening. They are fully. I hesitate given our earliest part of the conversation, but they are fully present.

Michael Grinder: Present. Yeah.

Marcus Cauchi: They're not thinking about supper, the row they had with their spouse, the row they're gonna have with their teenage children.

Or their target. They're just there and they're paying attention all the way through. And I, I see listening as something that is a whole body experience. You don't just listen with your ears. You listen with your eyes, you listen with your gut. It's a tiring exercise.

When you are coaching, do you come with specific intent?

Marcus Cauchi: So let's talk about intent. When you are coaching, do you come with specific intent?

Michael Grinder: I do. I wanna make sure that I'm in service to the other person. To do that, I have to make sure that I've gone through my different four levels of professional development, because if I ask of myself or ask of another person to be fully present and they don't know their content, they'll be [00:25:00] lost. If they know their content, but they don't know how to deliver it.

They're prearranging in their mind how they're gonna respond to it. And they're not fully present. So fully present is the art, but you've gotta learn your science first.

The art and science of communication

Marcus Cauchi: Right? Okay. So we talked about that in the preamble before we started recording, you said that, um, that the arts and science of communication, but you learn it in reverse.

So explain to, uh, to me then what does science, what do you mean by the science and then what you mean by the art so that we are, we are clear.

Michael Grinder: Usually the science says, this is what is true. It's an Axiom. Always do this, never do this. Example: uh, if you're a presenter trainer you're trained never to break eye contact.

So you'd never break eye contact cuz that's the science. But when you get to the art, you learn how to break eye contact. Now, why were you told initially never break eye contact because [00:26:00] you don't wanna lose contact, but if you know how to regain contact, it's okay to lose contact.

Marcus Cauchi: Ah. Okay. So you-

Michael Grinder: You have to know how to recover. Example: I'm showing a PowerPoint and I've been trained in the science, never break eye contact.

I'm looking directly at the audience. I have my hand gesture towards the PowerPoint and no one's looking at the PowerPoint. They're looking at me. Oh, wait. Don't look at me. Look at here. Look at here until I turn and look, they won't look. So now the question is when can I get off of the science of always do this, never do this and go into the gray matter of art because art is the hardest to transfer because it's axioms, it's principles.

It's not always do this. Never do this.

Marcus Cauchi: So for those of you who've listened to the podcast. I, I often talk about the difference between literal and reality. Uh, literal is the science, reality is the art. And again, the [00:27:00] worst bit of advice I ever, uh, got as a sales, uh, from my sales management was never asked closed questions because they might say no, actually, and getting to an early qualified no is a win.

And if you know how to sell parse land and then represents no threat. And often once they've had a chance to say no to you,

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

Marcus Cauchi: That's when the real selling begins. And also in coaching when I I'm coaching somebody, sometimes they need to come from that perspective of no.

Michael Grinder: Yeah.

Marcus Cauchi: So that, uh, they can break that pattern themselves.

If you are coaching somebody and they find themselves at a point of resistance where they're not making the next breakthrough, I've always maintained that if I'm not able to help somebody, it's a teaching disability, rather than a learning disability. How true would you say that is?

Marcus Cauchi: So this, this is really interesting. Tell me this. If you are coaching somebody and they find themselves at a point of resistance where they're not making the next breakthrough, I've always maintained that if I'm not able to help somebody, it's a teaching disability, rather than a learning disability. How true would you say that [00:28:00] is?

And, uh, is, is there a way that, um, that the trainer or the coach needs to adjust in order to be able to help people to make breakthroughs where they've hit a brick war.

Michael Grinder: Quick background being raised the Catholic good Irish Catholic.

Marcus Cauchi: Yeah.

Michael Grinder: First time as in public school was the first day I taught. So parochial in the seminary studying two years to be a priest

then six years at a Jesuit university getting masters and teaching credential BA so I have that strong, you gotta do this. Most communication models are based on three floors of the house of communication, and there are no resistant clients. There's own inflexible sales people. I invented the fourth floor called permission to counteract whether people feel like they're a failure or not.

Because most successful sales people are self referenced, as you [00:29:00] mentioned earlier, so that if they don't service and get a yes from someone, it doesn't hurt their self-esteem. They're just ready for the next one. Is there a possibility that there's a level above that or you are fully present? and you feel the pain of the other person that what you are offering and what they need does not match.

And you do not want to close that sale. Cause the highest compliment you can receive is when someone who didn't sign a contract refers you to other people that they know is a good match.

Marcus Cauchi: Absolutely. And I think that's a moral imperative. I think you have a moral obligation to walk away from opportunity to sell to someone

where they don't want or need what you have and you have a moral obligation to sell to them where you can help them. But more often than not salespeople, like I said are selfish. And I think if you approach your selling [00:30:00] and your management with a service mentality, which does not mean service you and, and people need to really separate the two service is about

coming to a conversation with somebody else as an equal. And in, in some, uh, what we, uh, learned was that first of all, you have rights and your self concept will determine the level that, which you perform. If you don't see yourself as someone's equal, uh, you you'll find a way of putting them on a pedestal or playing the big I am and trying to bully them into, uh, making a decision neither of which serves them.

That's entirely self-serving or being subservient.

Is permission something that needs to be reciprocated because both sides need to give and get permission?

Marcus Cauchi: So help me understand this then Michael, when you reach that level of art and you get to the point where you've earned permission. Is [00:31:00] permission something that needs to be reciprocated because both sides need to give and get permission?

Michael Grinder: And it depends on the context. Example: in business, trying to compromise is really an art .In marriage,

a lot of times the research shows from Dr. John Gottman 69% of all the chronic unsolvable problems between partners are not solvable. And for someone to compromise would be to infringe on their identity. So it depends on which context we can talk about permission from both sides.

Marcus Cauchi: Right. So you have to be able to agree to disagree.

Michael Grinder: But the question is, can you be respectful?

Gottman's research shows that being able to solve problems has nothing to do with the satisfaction of the marriage. It's the fact that you can pull up the rug, bring out the dirt, look at it, [00:32:00] go back to the same things you've always said respectfully, then put the rug back down. But normally one of the two members in it will say, I don't wanna pick up that rug.

We didn't do anything the last time we, we didn't solve it. It's a waste of time. So then the question is, what do you consider success? Is success when you resolve? Is success when you respect? So then you have to really define values that are competing with getting the yes with values of respect.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So let's explore values as well, because I think in business, values are often seen as something a little bit tree huggy.

Whereas in fact, where in particular, as I observe. The younger generations like gen Z and, uh, millennials, values are a filtered through which they determine which employers they're attracted to [00:33:00] and where we see very high levels of engagement. Uh, you encourage and earn discretionary effort. And I think in a marriage, you also earn discretionary effort where your values align and, um, you feel that the other person's intent mm-hmm is to support your values, even though they may disagree with you.

How crucial is it to establish a values baseline and make sure that people understand what is acceptable and not acceptable before you engage or embark on the coaching relationship?

Marcus Cauchi: So in the coaching scenario or in the management scenario, how crucial is it to establish a values baseline and make sure that people understand what is acceptable and not acceptable before you engage or embark on the coaching relationship?

Michael Grinder: The more you have permission to work from the person from the inside out: their values, their core, as opposed to their outside in: your behavior, your appearance, the deeper the change will be.

Marcus Cauchi: Okay. [00:34:00] So if we want to create lasting, meaningful lasting change, right on a very deep level.

Michael Grinder: Correct.

Marcus Cauchi: Um, we not only have to have permission, but there has to be a recognition of, and a respect for the values of the other person.

Michael Grinder: You were talking about the younger generation. And there's so many things I'd like to change about 'em, but their area of values and what is meaningful for them,

I wouldn't wanna tamper with, because if you look at historically in the corporate world, we've spent a lot of time with DISC, Myers-Briggs. What color's your parachute? And what we're doing is they're trying to find compatibility. They're doing the same thing. In terms of the dating services. Are you similar to this other person? Get together and you're gonna be whoa, I wanna strongly suggest separate the idea of style, how you receive and process information from values. And if you are gonna work with someone, whether you're a [00:35:00] salesperson, manager, trainer, you're gonna work with a group of. Would you rather have a disagreement on your style level, but agreement on your value level or would you rather have commonality on your style level, but disagree on your value level?

90% of the people will say, I wanna have compatibility on the value level, but if that's true, then long term sustainable relationship is when you satisfy the needs. The needs values of the client. That's why in sales, just ask the people that you're training, what is their retention of working with the same clients?

If their retention is high, their values are high. Their ethics are high. If their retention is low, then their manners, ethics will be low. Also

If you had a golden ticket and you could go back and whisper in the ear of the idiot, Michael age 23, what would you whisper?

Marcus Cauchi: I'd love to talk about this more length, but we've come close time. So, first of all, thank you so [00:36:00] much. This has been incredibly insightful. Tell me this: if you had a golden ticket and you could go back and whisper in the ear of the idiot, Michael age 23, what would you whisper?

And it doesn't have to be about regret, but what, what would your choice bit of advice?

Michael Grinder: Probably, probably say every time Michael, you make a plan, God chuckles.

Marcus Cauchi: Yeah.

What would you suggest people go off and read?

Marcus Cauchi: doesn't exist. Okay, well, there there's an old military aphorism, which is then the plan never survives contact with the enemy. So, yeah. Um, I, I think that's for that, if there was one seminal work that you'd recommend people read or something they should watch or listen to, uh, would they have to be watching, cuz we've already established communications better watching it.

What would you suggest people go off and read or.

Michael Grinder: It depends on how you wanna do it. Example if I need to be inspired, I go to YouTube and I go, [00:37:00] Britain has talent and watch Simon with among the four judges. And I absolutely make sure I get some of their best performances. I end up crying. Then I'm able to pick up the keyboard and I'm inspired.

So the question is not what to read, but what inspires you? What takes you beyond what you thought was humanly possible? That's what really changes me. And for me, it happens to be my wife. My wife is so kind, so gentle. I am someone who has a lot of, um, learning disabilities and she makes sure that I can't send anything out of the office until she inspects it, but she's kind and gentle.

So she knows that my style of not being able to spell or grammar has nothing to do with whether I can think. And her ability to separate that makes me feel so loved. And that's what propels me forward to saying, go for it, go for it.

How can people get hold of you?

Marcus Cauchi: On that happy note, I think will end. [00:38:00] How can people get hold of you?

Michael Grinder: michaelgrinder.com

Marcus Cauchi: Michael Grinder,

thank you.

Michael Grinder: If they get a chance, YouTube house of communication.

Marcus Cauchi: Absolutely. So thank you, Marcus Cauchi signing off once again from the Inquistitor podcast. If you've enjoyed this conversation, then please get in touch at marcus@laughs-last.com or contact me via LinkedIn. And if you think you'd be a good guest, then please drop me a note

and either let me know that you want to come on or if there's someone you'd like me to have as guest, then connect us on LinkedIn. In the meantime, stay safe and happy selling. Bye-bye.

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