Bevis Moynan

SUMMARY

What does "motivation" mean, and how does it connect to "values"?

Values, such as those related to money, competition, and achievement, influence a person's motivational preferences. Aligning personal and corporate objectives with employee motivations will lead to success.

What effects has the adoption of motivating maps had on firms' hiring and onboarding procedures?

In order to improve the first onboarding process and the manager's comprehension of the employee, motivational maps have been used in the hiring and onboarding process. This has aided the recruitment process. The maps can also assist in identifying flight risks and coaching staff toward improved job satisfaction.

What part does motivational mapping play in company settings when interacting with senior leadership?

Answer in a nutshell: Motivational mapping enables successful communication that is in line with what is essential to individuals and assists coaches and consultants in communicating with senior leadership.

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00]

Marcus Cauchi: Hello, and welcome back once again to the Inquisitor Podcast with me, Marcus Cauchi. Today my guest is Bevis Moynan. He is the founder of Magenta Coaching Solutions. He is a motivational mapper, and he and I have been having a number of conversations around the alignment between mission, vision, and values, the links between rewards, compensation, and driving the right and wrong behaviors.

And today we're gonna get into. Detail around these topics. Bevis, welcome.

Bevis Moynan: Oh, welcome Marcus. Thanks for, thanks for having me on.

60 seconds on your background

Marcus Cauchi: My pleasure. So, Bevis, would you mind giving 60 seconds on your background so people understand where you've come from?

Bevis Moynan: Sure, absolutely. So, um, as many people are in management, I was in a middle manager in a mid-size organization previously had a failed Korean sports at the grew up in New Yorkshire was a very keen cricketer. I used to sleep in my cricket bar as a kid. Very passionate about that. And um, one of the things that [00:01:00] happened at, I was at university at Loughborough, I was 18 years old at a county cricket trial. And I didn't turn up and I didn't turn up. Ended up in the nightclub the night before drinking too much, and, uh, hadn't really realized, obviously at that age what was going on.

But when I got to about 30 and had kind of had an okay management career and realized I was living in my comfort zone and had been for a long time, and avoiding fear and avoiding failure. So the NLP, I found an NLP course. The chairman of my cricket club recommended it when I was about late twenties.

Found myself an NLP course around about the age of 30. And that was at my first step in the person development world. And I kind of haven't looked back since, really? I, I've just carried on learning, did my master practitioner course, 2010. Discovered motivational maps 2011, which was the thing that prompted me to follow through on the idea of having a coaching and training company.

Actually, it was the map with a key moment where I went, now this is gonna go from being an idea to a plan, and I've just kept learning. So everything I've learned, I, I've now learned to [00:02:00] train other people in. So whether it be NLP, time on therapy, motivational mapping, public speaking, everything we do as a business, or I've done one-to-one, we now train others to do the same.

So that's kind of as quick an introduction as I can really.

How do you create alignment between the company's mission, vision, and values, and the individual's mission, vision and values?

Marcus Cauchi: Excellent. How do you create alignment between the company's mission, vision, and values, and the individual's mission, vision and values?

Bevis Moynan: It's a big question. First thing is to have a mission, have a purpose. I think I was having this conversation last night with a group of coaches.

Many people don't step back individually and think about their own purpose. So from an individual perspective, it's, well, they're taking that step and thinking, well, what, what is our mission? And from an organizational perspective, it's, that's the starting point. It's gotta be thinking about what the purpose.

I've had lots of conversations with people saying that businesses are there to kind of fulfill a role. And you think about human resources. Human resources suggest that humans are resources for business. [00:03:00] Well, I would argue the opposite, that businesses are resources to serve people. So I think it's taking, taking a step back and thinking actually, what is the purpose of our organization at the outset?

Who are we here to serve? And once you've got that bit nailed and it's involving organizations and working actually, who have we got within the business? What are the people, what are the makeup of the people? So starting that approach, not from a well, we're just gonna come up with a mission and then cascade it, actually do some interrogation of the people within the business.

As you know, where we're both fans of motivational mapping. To do that, if you know what motivates and drives the organization of people within the business, it's much easier to create a mission and then a vision that is aligned with who you've got within the business. So, but the first bit is to take a real step back when doing that exercise in, in the right, the outset.

Marcus Cauchi: If we're gonna spend time speaking to the team about their mission [00:04:00] and their values, um, one of the things that I've noticed is that often leaders and managers come at a problem through their own lens. They don't necessarily understand where their people are coming from.

What is motivation first of all?

Marcus Cauchi: What is motivation first of all?

Bevis Moynan: Motivation and values are inextricably linked. So if you've got a motivational preference within motivational maps of the builder, then the values that sit around that are money, competition and achievement. So motivation is based around a set of values, and values are what are what the, the things that are important to us.

Of course we get problems when we have a disconnect between what an organization wants to be focusing on and then what people are actually focusing on. And the same with people. We get a disconnect as human beings between what motivates us and the things we are doing day-to-day in our life. So for me, success is about getting alignment individually between our goals and our [00:05:00] values and for organizations are saying that if we can get alignment between our organizational goals and what's driving our people, then we are much more likely create the culture and the success that we're after.

What are motivational maps?

Marcus Cauchi: Talk to me about motivational mapping then, because many people will not be familiar with it.

Obviously you and I are, but what, what is mo uh, what are motivational maps?

Bevis Moynan: So, motivational maps are a tool. It takes 10 to 12 minutes to complete. They give you, it's effectively in my, uh, world as an NLP, it's a values solicitation. You get a measurement of what motivates yourself, or if you're a manager, you get a measure for what motivates each person and what motivates the team at large.

But the beauty of maps is it also gives you an indication of how, as an individual, how you are feeling that your work is meeting your needs. Um, and how your motivational drivers are likely to change over time. So it's the most incredible coaching tool, and for managers, it gives an indication of how fulfilled their team are.

And crucially, the difference between what motivates you as a [00:06:00] manager and what motivates your team, and that often answers quite a lot of questions and a lot of headaches.

Marcus Cauchi: Certainly in my experience of using them, I've found that to be particularly powerful in the recruitment process because I can identify whether or not somebody is unhappy in their current role, but also what I need to be able to identify and to leverage in order to get the best out of a new hire.

And also what to avoid, particularly in the first 120 days of the onboarding process because that's when they are putting you and your company and the job on probation. Is this the job I was sold? Is my boss an ass? Do I like the people I'm working with? Can I do the job? Was I better off somewhere else or would I be better off somewhere else?

Have you got any war stories of how you've been able to leverage the motivational maps in the onboarding process and in the hiring process?

Marcus Cauchi: And that first 120 days is really critical. [00:07:00] Have you got any war stories of how you've been able to leverage, um, the motivational maps in the onboarding process and in the hiring process?

Bevis Moynan: Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, a couple of, I've got some successful and some less successful stories being, uh, completely frank.

So one of the ones that springs to mind was a conversation I had with, which is a, it's a success in the long run, but a failure in the short term. We'll talk about that. So a conversation with a friend of mine who was in the recruitment industry, and he was explaining to me this cycle of recruitment, six months of expense.

Kind of getting people up to a level of performance. So they were highly motivated with low skills. Then all of a sudden, after six months, after a lot of expense, these people were good performers. But then he said, what happens is over two years, they would exit and there was this constant churn of new people into the business.

So it was costing a fortune. Now we weren't able to get maps into that business. Interestingly, it was almost as if there was enough pain or not enough pain [00:08:00] to actually solve the problem, which I found fascinating. Interestingly, subsequently, the person I was talking to has left the corporate recruitment world and set up his own recruitment industry, um, recruitment business.

Were using Maps as part of the tool to do exec to actually add extra value to be able to. So, I mean, what a great niche she's got is gonna. Help recruit into an industry and give them a motivational map to make sure that a, the initial onboarding process is more effective, gives him a USP as a business.

And it also means that in the future, the manager knows what they're getting. So they worked with the manager as well to actually understand what they're getting at the outset and how to get the most out of Sunday. And I just think that is, it is very rare because as motivational maps, we're still scratching the surface, but what an incredible thing to be offer.

The other thing that was amazing about it is the people that weren't successful, it was almost quasi coaching. So they became more aware of what the next right career step might be for them. And the extra, what that does is the [00:09:00] brand of that company went up immeasurably because even people who weren't successful were having a positive image of the experience they'd had.

So it was a failure that led to a longer term success.

Marcus Cauchi: What I've also found is when I've taken over a team is that it's a very, very clear indicator of who is gonna be a flight risk and to be able to identify if there is any remedial work as a manager, uh, you can do to keep your top talent by identifying the areas of their motivation that are not being satisfied and have that conversation early on.

In order to be able to identify what you need to do as a manager in order to coach them into greater satisfaction at work so that they don't feel the need to leave. Because wrong hires is the single highest second cost in any business, but turnover is massively [00:10:00] expensive as you've already alluded to.

How you've helped your clients work in that space?

Marcus Cauchi: So if we take a look at how a manager can start to identify, If the rewards, recognition and measurement systems that are in place generically are inappropriate for individuals, so can you talk to me a little bit about how you've helped your clients work in that space?

Bevis Moynan: Yeah, for sure. I mean the, as a number of things from what you just said, I always think back to my first ever motivational mapping project where we mapped the team, and it was a team I was part of, and perhaps the highest performing member of that team was our marketing manager, and she was 48% motivated at the time.

Marcus Cauchi: Oh dear.

Bevis Moynan: Remember the manager, my, my, my, my boss at the time, I was feeding the results, but how can she be, she's my most productive member of the team.

I was like, hang on, I'm sat, you're telling me she's more, but, so he, he was aware that she was productive, but she was, she had two or three job interviews lined up at the time [00:11:00] that the mapping process was completed. So it was a real risk. And when he realized that she was a high star, not feeling like she was getting the recognition she deserved, cuz the star motivator all about reward and recognition.

He was able to, he was a Yorkshireman. We had a very dower Yorkshire dominated male culture in the organization, in the management team. He was able to change, simply change his management style. He actually asked her to come in, speak to him, and present to him on her achievements over the last couple of years.

And she stayed for another three years and she was a top, top performer. So I think you are right. Retention of the the, the retention of top quality, expensive management is a real issue. The maps address really well. So that's definitely one side of it. The other side you asked about was the how do we make sure our reward strategies work and are effective?

And I think there's a real issue with simply looking at pay and salary. As our main [00:12:00] mechanism, especially high up in the corporate world for reward. There's a real issue there, and I've got a, I'm aware I'm talking quite a lot, but there's quite a good case study around that where we had an organization with 21 senior managers and not a single manager ever stayed with the organization past the age of 50.

It blew my mind cuz when we got the results back, spirit freedom, independence was the second highest motivational preference and the least well fulfilled. And it was like glaringly obvious. Here are these highly paid senior managers, and we get this senior management dilemma. They'd been motivated by power and control influence most of their career that all of a sudden freedom kicks in and you get this conflict at an individual level.

And they were constantly losing people around 49, 48 people leaving the. Because the culture of the organization was such that they would nev, didn't feel like they had sufficient independence as they big, that became more important to them.

So what did they do in order to address that?

Marcus Cauchi: So what did they do in order to [00:13:00] address that?

Bevis Moynan: Well, the first thing, the first step was obviously getting, it was, I was working with the management consultancy team at this time.

So they had motivational mapping exercise. The answers kind of bounce back quite alarmingly at them in that the solution to that was very, very straightforward. They need to sit down. Wasn't actually me that did the work, but one of our fellow practitioners who we interviewed all 21 of the senior managers and found out the specific reasons why they didn't feel that their motivation around independence and autonomous being met.

And you know what? There was some really, really simple solutions, really simple solutions. Home working around. A lot of it was actually around management style because the, because of the, the director, the drive for control, power, and influence at the top that was being flushed through the organization and quite senior people weren't being given sufficient autonomy, wasn't actually about time away for everyone was prepared to [00:14:00] work hard, but they hated having people looking over their shoulders.

So it was, it was an interestingly, pay wasn't even the builder motivation was quite lower down. So they were rewarding by pay and not giving people the bandwidth to think. So it was about, it was, it is subtle changes and in culture in terms of management, senior management education, but how they managed and beginning to re reward independence as opposed to fi finances.

Marcus Cauchi: It's interesting then because, uh, as someone reaches those awesome, awesome years in their career, let's be diplomatic about it. They've already had the, uh, the power, they've already had the financial reward. And certainly as I approached 50, I definitely wanted more autonomy and I, I wanted more freedom to be creative and to make a contribution.

And so I found that, I've always been relatively independent and for [00:15:00] the last 20 years I've been working for myself anyway. But working with a fra within a franchise structure, uh, although it wasn't massively constraining. For me, I, I have a very high spirit motivator within my map. And, um, for those of you who are listening, um, spirit is effectively about freedom.

Freedom of choice, freedom of. And the ability to really break the boundaries and rules. So I found myself more and more constrained, even though the chains were very light. What I wanted to be able to do was to be far more creative and to feel like I had more to offer. So the last three or four years, I've definitely noticed that, and since I've left the franchise.

That weight has definitely lifted because now I'm working in seven different industry segments and I'm able to do so much more and I'm able to connect the [00:16:00] dots in ways that I wasn't able to before as well. So I'm seeing my own performance go through the roof because of that, uh, release. So if you are seeing that happen in an organization, the culture is one of command and control.

What's the conversation you as a motivational mapper need to have with senior leadership?

Marcus Cauchi: What's the conversation you as a motivational mapper need to have with senior leadership? Because I imagine that's a fairly tight, precarious tightrope to walk. Talk to me about that.

Bevis Moynan: Well, that's, that's the beauty of the maps. And it didn't, it didn't immediately become apparent to me. Um, when I first became trained, it, the penny dropped a couple years later that one of the beauties of being a motivational mapper is when you are communicating with someone, you've got then the knowledge of their map in front of you.

And I'm quite a, a low director profile, quite a high spirit. So I found myself banging my head against the brick wall when communicating with people who were in senior management positions who had a direct motivation. And that was me doing what I'm teaching others not [00:17:00] to do. Projecting out my own lens of the other person and rather than taking a step back and communicating a way in which aligns with what's important to other people.

So what I remember, a couple of key moments. One was with a CEO in local government saying that one of the reasons for learning more about what motivates your team is to gain greater control of your management leadership style, which at the moment isn't giving you great recognition cuz it was a high star.

That got me in to do the work that was needed. And another conversation was in financial services where a manager was telling that senior manager said, how can I keep hold of this guy? He's amazing. He's telling me he wants to become a financial advisor. And I'm looking at his motivational map, seeing spirit above 30.

I said, you can't, but you can't keep hold of him. What you can do is you can provide coaching and support over the next two years so that while he's ex, while he's exiting, you get two really good years of of value out of him as opposed to trying to constrain him. It being uncomfortable for him and his, him being a neg, [00:18:00] becoming a negative influence.

Cuz if you've got a high spirit profile I should know and you've been asked to do things you don't wanna do, you can ab react to that as well. So the key thing there is, is getting top level buy-in to the need to support people in their own journey, which is a bit of an unusual thing. We are actually helping people potentially exit the business over three, four years and supporting them in that. But getting really quality performance out of those people whilst they, whilst it does work for them to be there. Now that's a different sort of conversation. It's not one that everyone is ready for, but if it, if we can allow people to evolve and grow within a business, they'll give so much more back to business whilst they're

Marcus Cauchi: there..

That's a really interesting angle because I suspect that people with a very high director personality type will see that as potentially a wasted investment. But if you then look at it through their lens and you help them position it [00:19:00] as, we're gonna get two or three great years outta this person whilst we find their replacement and they move on leaving, uh, the business in a better shape, then that taps into that motivation.

Bevis Moynan: A absolutely. And, and I used to struggle with people whose motivation are the high direct profile now I absolutely love working with them because they want to know. They want to know and they want to learn, not because they're a high expert, because they want to be informed so that they can make good solid decisions about the business.

It's about being informed so they can have great control of their decision making. And yes, it might not be what they want to hear, that somebody's probably gonna leave in the next two or three years. But if they know two, three years out, then they're more informed to make better decisions and to have greater information at their hands for their own decision making.

So it took me a while to learn that. But if we, one of the things, one of the reasons I love maps, I, I've trained over 150 motivational maps and a similar amount of NLP is the maps [00:20:00] are great for coaches and consultants to be able to communicate with senior managers and leaders on the same bandwidth. Whereas often within businesses, you get a disconnect between say, human resources and the senior leadership cuz they feel like the different values they're pulling in opposite directions.

So it helps coaches and consultants speak to, uh, well, not just to senior leaders, but to everyone with awareness of what's important to them, which is for communication to flow. It's, it's essential.

Is success frequently accidental?

Marcus Cauchi: This then raises a really interesting question, which is, is success frequently accidental?

Bevis Moynan: I think that most people, if they're honest with themselves, often walk backwards into.

And what I mean by that is often we experience some negative events in our life somewhere that become a driving force. And if you ask entrepreneurs, this is definitely the case, that something goes wrong somewhere in their life, either in money or health or relationships or all free. And we [00:21:00] go, I don't want that.

And we want backwards to a place where. Whew. Now I've, I'm comfortable. But the problem with that is entrepreneurs don't like feeling comfortable. So then, then they have to, often, they risk stuff to then create that next level of motivation. Whereas one of the things I'm really, really passionate about is once we've had a chat with a chap as a non, non, uh, exec director of non multiple companies, and we found out through our coaching work that his number one value in life was financial independence. I was like, Simon, you've been, you were financially independent 30 years ago. And it's, the penny dropped that he was focusing on something from his past. And actually we needed to be focusing on abundance cuz he kept, even though he was a very, uh, at ease, a very successful chap, he didn't, he ne wasn't necessarily feeling it, if that makes sense.

So it's great to have though, that negative event to get us moving, but once we've actually achieved a level of success, we almost need to let go of that. Focus on the direction we're traveling in. It's the [00:22:00] same concept with, with health and fitness. We wanna be focusing on health as opposed to weight loss because otherwise we bounce back and forth on that failure success pan.

What's your advice in terms of making sure that you have the right balance or mix or preponderance of motivations within a team?

Marcus Cauchi: So in terms of building teams then that are likely to be successful collectively rather than, uh, creating individual success for the leader, but other people feeling like their needs are not being met. What's your advice in terms of making sure that you have the right balance or mix or preponderance of motivations within a team?

I suspect sometimes you want an imbalance depending on the type of organization you're trying to build in order to achieve your successful outcome.

Bevis Moynan: Yeah, I mean, the. There's a very simple answer, uh, which is to, to get involved with motivational mapping to find out what you've currently got. If we just put motivational mapping to one side for a [00:23:00] minute, I think one of the key things is to ensure we are not hiring in our own image, which I certainly made.

I I, I, I made the mistake of doing, um, work with many managers and leaders that accidentally happens. We just hire people like us and then of course, we've not quite got the, the level of healthy conflict within the. So knowledge is, is definitely power, if you're aware of what's motivating the team. When I did some values work with an organization recently, they said we, we are going to, our number two value this year is gonna be creativity and innovation.

And then of course we matched the team. Nobody was motivated by creativity and innovation. So that then lent itself to future recruitment. If you're gonna have somebody who's gonna be an innovative thinker, then it is help useful for them to be motivated by innovation and creativity. So awareness is key.

Motivational mapping is and can be a big part of that. But also it's about intention. Having the intention to go, actually we are gonna create a team that's not just a group of people, it's a real team that [00:24:00] have different preferences that work together with the awareness of the differences. So we end up with an emotionally intelligent team.

That's what we're after, where people are happy with healthy conflict and differences opinion, but understand it's not personal. It's just people are driven in different ways. They've got the same, the same team goal, but they're driven in different ways to get there. And that creates that culture, that creative healthy culture that, that, that we want within our businesses, which it's, it's also creates emotional resilience because we are becoming comfortable with difference and that's gotta be key.

Marcus Cauchi: I suspect that that could be the recipe for a proper shitstorm if no one's motivated by creativity and then you start recruiting them because all of a sudden culturally they're not gonna be one of us. And, uh, it will feel different. So I think what's really key here is that you've got to make sure that if you are going to recruit people whose motivations [00:25:00] are not in direct alignment with your current team that you have a plan and you're prepared.

How do you make sure that you are not just creating another monster headache?

Marcus Cauchi: So how do you make sure that you are not just creating another monster headache?

Bevis Moynan: That is such a good point and a fantastic example of that within the financial services sector. And sometimes you get called in, well, you usually do actually as a consultant. You get, you don't get called in when things are going great, you get called when the shit stops happen.

So what happened was they had been recruited or not even recruited, moved somebody internally within the business to take over a team with the remit of shaking up the team. So I came in and suggested we motivational met the team. What we found was this was a banking sector and every or went round the team.

How long have you been here? 20 years, 15 years. 16 years. 18 years. Super high searcher defender, expert profile meaning security, stability, expertise, specialization, [00:26:00] mastery. They'd all been there a long time. They all knew the job inside out, and they were all performing. Performing at an okay level. The manager had been brought in to shake up the team, and we mapped this particular chap, creator, spirit search, your top three, all growth motivations at the top Q, massive conflict and unrest.

Because he had the intention. I think this, this, the, the senior manager had the right idea, well, this guy will shake this this lot. The manager themselves had the right intention. But of course, if you are motivated by creativity and innovation, you're managing somebody who's moti motivated by security and stability, and you start moving people's desks, et cetera, then you are, you've just, you've just created that storm that you were talking about.

So awareness is, If you know what's motivating people, that particular manager could have still had the remit of shaking things up, but the way that that would've been communicated would've been so, so different. I was learnt so much cuz I'm a super low defender in my [00:27:00] motivational map and a good friend of mine, John, who's the highest defender I've ever met, and it's still good friends, one of the most loyal people you'll ever meet, only ever worked for one organization and will be there until he finishes his career, I'm sure. And he said to me, his purpose it's not that I dislike change if that I dis I, I, I need to know that change will lead to longer term stability and I'll, I've never forgotten that. Because up until that point, I was judging him from being a brick wall to all of my ideas and then from everyone else, I was like, right, okay.

When we communicate high creators, we need to communicate, change about the benefits in terms of how it will lead to long-term security in the future. Then you'll get the diff, the people who motivate by security on board with you. And the other thing that that I, that I used to definitely do as a high spirit was I used to mismatch people's need for information.

Cuz my mind was always running quickly as senior leaders minds tend to. and therefore I wasn't communicating sufficiently regularly enough. And again, as we, if you're managing change, then it's sometimes in certain [00:28:00] organizations we need to tell people even when nothing's happened. So it's a great good point to remember for teams managing process of change where we have motivation around security.

An email going out, saying, just to let you know, nothing's happened since last week. And I remember thinking, why do I need to do that? If we have that security drive within organizations, which many have and processes of change are occurring, worry will occur if they're not communicating well too and when worry occurs, motivation, fulfillment drops and then productivity drops.

So yeah, awareness is key.

Marcus Cauchi: This is really interesting. So let's explore how motivation can facilitate effective change programs because I, if you understand, I mean that, that insight around high defenders has opened my eyes to something that I'm seeing. I work with a number of people who have a tendency to not communicate.

And because I'm making introductions [00:29:00] or I'm working with a, a wide array of, uh, different people, that lack of communication sends a really terrible signal and for them, It doesn't seem to matter because they're just moving on to the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. So when you are trying to establish a, a foundation right at the beginning of a change program.

Bevis Moynan: Mm-hmm.

What are the steps that you would advise people to go through?

Marcus Cauchi: What are the steps that you would advise people to go through? Uh, let's assume they've done the motivational mapping. What are the steps that a manager or a leader or program manager should go through in order to ensure that people understand. Why they're going through this yet another change program and what their role and involvement will be and what the intended outcome is, and the cadence of communication that is required in order to ensure that all the different motivational drivers are satisfied.[00:30:00]

Bevis Moynan: Brilliant. So I would say there's a difference between running. Change programs and running bespoke team management sessions. So if we got a bespoke team management session, it's fairly straightforward. We're finding out what motivates the team, communicating that to the manager and helping upscale and helping the manager learn how to more effectively manage that team and improving relationships.

That's what I would call a very typical motivational map project. Motivational mapping projects around change management. A uh, a much bigger project, and it needs to be done in a slightly different way in that usually with a, with a team, you map everybody and then you get to work immediately. Whereas with change management process, you want to map the entire organization to create and, and if you can, if you can get buy-in for that, map the entire organization, map every department, map each team in the department, and then you've got whole plethora of information that can feed senior decision making based on actually how people are feeling within [00:31:00] the business, how engaged they are, how motivated each team is, and you start to see pockets of excellence and pockets of those shit stones that we talked about earlier. And it's what I know from for sure about this is it's like a breath of fresh air.

Like senior managers go, oh, because you, I, I've had conversations with senior managers who have found that the engagement survey is like somebody giving them the headache. It's given them a headache pill, not a solution pill. We, here's a headache without, without a, without a solution. Because engagement surveys are okay, but they don't necessarily focus on the solution.

They focus on the problem. Whereas motivational mapping, here you are, you now know, oh, cracky, what is earth's going on in Burley with the sales team that's 42% motivated. And then you find that the, the sales manager's a high director managing a team of spirits. Oh, what on Earth's going on in marketing?

And you've got, and you find out on a cracky, why is team here that's 90% motivated? Let's go and actually find out what's going well in all of that [00:32:00] department. And give credit where it's due, and then choose that insight to help support other, other teams. So it's a very different process, but it starts with taking a step back and going, right, let's actually find out what is going on within the business, and then that'll feed naturally our next steps.

Often we try and create the solution to quickly, we need to really understand what's actually going on with each team, each individual and the maps can give us that. Cause you have an organizational map, then a team map, and then an individual map. Um, for a senior leader to have all of this information in one report, obviously it needs a practitioner to debrief it and, and almost work with a senior leadership leader as a coach about what you do with that information.

Marcus Cauchi: It's interesting. I see a parallel because most vendor organizations go through a process of someone comes up with an idea, then they produce a product, then they recruit a sales team and a marketing team, and then they go out and they [00:33:00] find a customer. And that tends to create quite a lot of friction and quite, uh, an adversarial relationship or a transactional relationship with the end customer or prospect.

The smarter move is that you build everything around the customer and they're at the heart of everything that you do. And when you do that, there is a, a sense from the customer's perspective that you are there to help, to serve. And you put their interests above your own. And the net result of that is that, um, you are working in partnership and in concert with them.

And it strikes me that in terms of human relations, unless you have other people's interests at the heart of what you're doing, then chances are you'll be behaving like the transactional adversarial [00:34:00] kind of, uh, vendor. And so actually this is, I've always maintained that sales is just a microcosm of life.

Um, and I, I suspect, This is a powerful lesson in human relations.

Bevis Moynan: Well, we've found from, I mean, one of the facts that the book, me and James wrote together, motivation mapping for coaching, which is then James just written a, a new book around, um, motivational mapping in teams, and the information within those in the last 60,000 maps have shown the huge growth in the level of searching, motivation and the searching motivations around meaning and purpose.

And it's about serving the customer. It's about the link between what am I doing as Joe blogs and how I'm serving, how I'm helping somebody else. So unless, like you say, a lot of companies have struggled, have struggled to recruit because the year especially, there's a generational thing going on. The 20 somethings today think differently to when I was 20 something.

There's a lot less selfishness around in the 20 somethings nowadays. They want to [00:35:00] know about the sort of organization they work for. So I will say it's, it's kind of crucial for organizational survival that there's a real clear identity in terms of what, what the mission of the organization's about, and that for each person in the business can see the link to that.

And the link from there is something, I'm always worried when I see motivational maps of people who have search in their top three or four and it's scored six or five out of 10. I'm always a bit right that cause that says somebody's not finding what they're doing meaningful. Now that worries me. That worries me because it, it's a, it can be a quick win cuz it can be just about actually communicating more with the end client or the customer or finding out how, or getting testimonials.

But sometimes it's not a quick win, it's just this, it's an indication of something cultural that the client or the, the customer hasn't been at the center of, of what the organization has been about or it's got lost along the journey sometimes as, as businesses grow.

Marcus Cauchi: This is really interesting because I think this also points to another, [00:36:00] conflict, which is the confusion that many people have where they think they have a team, but what they actually have is a group.

And that failure to understand what binds those people, what unifies them, is at the heart of why many organizations and why many teams just fail. Because they, they haven't really created a team culture. They haven't created common ground.

Bevis Moynan: I think we also need to give managers and leaders a break cuz it, it's not easy.

It's not easy. And, and one of the reasons it's not easy is cuz people change. So you might be running the right management strategy. One, uh, for what? For a person one year. And that three years later, that individual has changed because what is important to us over time changes. So there needs to be an element of tracking what's going on with people.

So it's not a, oh, we've done that now. We must get out of this fine art mindset of we've ticked that box. We've gotta let [00:37:00] go of that and think about growth and learning and EV evolution as Simon Sinek talks about the infinite mindset of growth and evolution and learning. If we can create that culture within organization, then it becomes part of the process to continually learn about the people in our team and regularly check in, and so that we can manage and create that team culture rather than a group of people that just happen to be working together.

So it's not easy because what motivates you as a manager changes. Um, I'm a huge advocate of coaching, especially for, for leaders and senior managers to make sure that leaders and senior managers motivation remains high and they, they, their career ends up in alignment with what's important to them. And if you get that bit right, then they're more likely and they're continuing to learn, then they're more likely to manage in a way and create that team culture.

And we've all been part of great teams and we've also been part of teams that. Great. Um, the energy difference is, yeah, we've all experienced it. I always think to [00:38:00] one particular lady who was doing a great job. She had the manager, she was managing customer service team, and a call center team. Call center team were amazing.

They were off working, flat out 97% staff satisfaction, customer services team, 73% staff satisfaction, same manager using the same management style. And when we got the results about the call center team had a really high friend motivator and the socialization and the bonding was there and the other, it was a group, it was a group of people working together with very different preferences.

And there was actually one issue within that team that when, when that issue was solved, that and the manager understood the differences then that the engagement level went up significantly, but it, it, it took, we've all heard one bad apple and all the analogies. It's so true. If you get one person who's cynical or even worse, it can really create a bit of a stink within a, within an environment.

Marcus Cauchi: That's really interesting because what I've seen time and again, is often [00:39:00] a lone wolf high perform. Can often disrupt the entire culture of an organization because the, um, their drive isn't in line with everybody else. And that creates this toxic environment. And, uh, this kind of feeds into what you were talking about as well in terms of the difference between the finite and the infinite mindset.

when I'm working with my clients and with my sales teams, what I'm trying to inculcate is this concept that what we're trying to do is grow the size of the cake, not the size of our slice , and by working in partnership with the customer, Then we are creating a bigger opportunity for them and for us. But a lot of salespeople have been managed by people who've had that finite mindset.

We win, you lose. We need [00:40:00] to outcompete the competition. What I've seen is that, um, the market actually is big enough for every. and there's plenty of room, there's plenty of opportunity. But the problem is if we're spending our time trying to beat the competition worse, not lose to them, then inevitably that means our focus is on the wrong end of the problem.

We're not focused on serving the customer, we're not focused on serving our team. And if you look at organizations that have high levels of engage, They also have very high levels of customer success typically, and the net result of that is that you end up winning anyway, but not because you're trying to beat the competition, not because you're trying to, uh, win against the customer.

Bevis Moynan: Yeah, it's um, it's a really fascinating one. I mean, one of my favorite things from NLP is that I, this [00:41:00] idea of valuable thinking. Um, valuable thinking is how we evolve as human beings valuable. One being survival, two being tribal. Do we have gangs in the uk? Yes. Do we have tribes of football fans? Yes. So we have tribal behavior in those areas.

Valuable. Three is win lose. We see it with our kids. Um, a good example with Ellie, my daughter, age four, nursery running race. Her friend fell over and she stopped and helped pick her up and, and everyone, oh, isn't that lovely? She wouldn't do that now , she'd be like, see you sucker, cuz she's in that win lose mentality.

Everything's about beating a brother and. So it's a natural part of our evolution. You only have to look at politics to know that there are plenty of people still losing, still in a win-lose mentality. Now, it's a funny thing this, because as you've said, sometimes top performers do have a win-lose mentality.

I'm a big cricket fan, so Kevin Peterson didn't necessarily get on particularly well or play nicely with his teammates. Just look at, I'm not saying anything that isn't backed up by the track [00:42:00] record of his relationships with people within his teams. However, he was a top performer. He was an individual within a team.

Now the Australian cricket setup did a much better job at managing Shane won than the England setup did about managing Kevin Peter. Now it is a choice because you might go as England team did. Actually, we'll be better off without him. That's fine. You can respect that decision. However, I'm also curious about can we be flexible and, and actually educate?

You've gotta give that option first rather than being rigid and going, that just isn't. That just doesn't fit. So I think there's always the option, the opportunity. If you have that culture around the cake, then you can kind of have individuals within that who are focusing on making their bit of the cake bigger, as long as they conform to the collective tea values.

And sometimes that's possible. Sometimes it's not.

Tell me this, what are you struggling with at the moment? What are you wrestling with?

Marcus Cauchi: Tell me this, what are you struggling with at the moment? What are you wrestling with?

Bevis Moynan: Well, do you know what, um, it's probably not an it, they're [00:43:00] not an an answer you were expecting. Um, but it's an honest answer. So right now, nothing but two or three weeks ago, I had a real wobble.

I'm at a real wobble and it, it's linked to kind of the year that we've had. And so I lost my mum in August, um, from cancer, and it was very sudden and very quick. And then, My dad obviously went and we were able to go away holiday with my dad, which was the family holiday. We twisted his arm to go and I'm so glad cuz with what's happened, I haven't seen him since.

So I was struggling a little bit with that, which I think is natural part of the grieving process. But I was also, we're also in the middle of a house move. I was telling you earlier about the boxes and whatever, and I felt also, I woke up in the middle of the night feeling really. Really anxious. And I was like, locally, having been in the person development world and having done Tarman therapy and N L P, I was aware that how I was feeling wasn't kind of in alignment with the outcome, the situation.

So I was for, and also fortunate to have a lot of good coaches and, and [00:44:00] colleagues around me. And I had a conversation within with a friend of mine who was a coach and within 10 or 15 minutes I was in tears and I was in tears because I realized that my. Even though it seemed like it was anxiety about the house move and the finances, the business and all, but it wasn't, it was actually to do with sadness because we've been in this house 10 or 10 or 11 years and of course there's lots of happy memories around my mom and having not been, not grieved as much as I probably would've done, having not been in the environment with my dad.

There was some, some grieving to do so. I'm a big fan of timeline therapy and, and emotional awareness, and it can really, having greater awareness around that stuff can really help because I think a younger version of myself would probably have put a kibosh in the house move, and if I'd have done that, I would've caused friction in my relationship.

It would've caused friction with five other houses within the chain. But yeah, I felt pretty awful for a day or two, I must admit. So I just wanted to share that because I know there's a lot of people right now struggling with lots of different things really. .

Marcus Cauchi: Well, I [00:45:00] mean that takes an awful lot of courage to, um, say things like that, so I do appreciate it.

Thank you.

What one choice bit of advice would you give him that you know, who would've probably ignored?

Marcus Cauchi: Tell me this, you've got a golden ticket and you could go back in time and advise the idiot, Bevis, age 23. What one choice bit of advice would you give him that you know, who would've probably ignored?

Bevis Moynan: I would've told him to say yes. That would be my one piece of advice. All of the good stuff that's come in my life has just come from saying yes.

I'm not the most strategic of beings. I've not had a life plan. Um, I've had some visions and some goals in the last 10 years, but a lot of stuff, the best stuff's come from me just saying, yes, James sell, saying Bevis, do you wanna write a book with me? Me going, yes. Even though the internal dialogue's going, what?

No, you're gonna write a book. You can see why, where I'm going with this. So I would've encouraged, cause I, I took, I kind of switched off, switched off to education for 10 years. I was like, got, so I remember waking up in the middle of the night having nightmares about the [00:46:00] fact I was about to have an exam then going, oh no, I haven't got one.

So I turned off from learning for 10 years. I also turned down quite a lot of sporting opportunities, which was a real passion of mine. In my teenage years in it. So I think my simple bit of advice would've been to just say yes to the opportunities that arose.

What are you watching, reading, listening to at the moment that you really read that you think other people should pay heed to?

Marcus Cauchi: Very interesting. What are you watching, reading, listening to at the moment that you really read that you think other people should pay heed to?

Bevis Moynan: Now you're asking well, So I'm a big fan of the Seven Spiritual Laws of Success by Deepak Chopra. It's, um, it's a book that Thick takes about 45 minutes to read and a lifetime to master. That's kind of my favorite book of all time, just on a very, um, whimsical level. I'm watching a bit of the Bay. Which is, uh, a series on tele about from Mokam.

I quite enjoying the views and the scenery and brought back some memories of, of a couple of holidays. So, um, so, so yeah. And also some messages [00:47:00] in there about parenting that are kind of like all cranky. Yes. So, um, so I'm enjoying those, those, those are two things I'm enjoying at the moment.

Marcus Cauchi: Fabulous. Bevis. Thank you very much. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Now how can people get hold of you?

Bevis Moynan: Easiest way is probably email. So, um, and thank you Mark. I've really, I felt like we could talk for a lot longer. It's been a pleasure. Um, so email, bevi magenta, cs.co uk although of course we've got a website, magenta Coaching Solutions and social media as well.

But email's probably the best e the easiest.

Marcus Cauchi: Excellent. And, uh, g give your book a quick plug.

Bevis Moynan: Yep. So Mapping Motivation for Coaching. It's all around understanding what motivates you and making good career deci decisions in alignment with what's most important to you. Cuz we've all done things cuz we thought it sound

Marcus Cauchi: Excellent.

Bevis Marlin, thank you very much. Thank you Marcus. So this is Marcus Cauchi signing off once again from the inquest to podcast. If you are the owner or c [00:48:00] e o of a tech company and your goal is to grow your business and achieve real, sustainable hyper growth with highly engaged and highly productive employees and clients who stick with you year after year after year.

Let's schedule a time for a brief conversation. You can reach me at marcus@laughs-last.com. Or you can contact me via direct message through LinkedIn. And if you've enjoyed this conversation, then please like, comment, share and subscribe. And if you think you'd be a good guest or you know someone else who would be, then ping me an email or a direct message and let's have a chat.

In the meantime, stay safe and happy selling. Bye-bye.

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