Amy Woodall
SUMMARY
What is Conscious Habit, and what caused its development?
A salesperson who wanted to impart valuable lessons to the rest of the firm developed Conscious Habit in response to the requirement to identify the underlying causes of problems. The creator has completed a 200-hour certification program to become a meditation instructor and has also learnt how to meditate. She now wants to educate others how to interact with themselves.
What kind of speech tone does someone who doesn't believe in themselves have?
The voice of the victim or someone who doesn't trust in themselves has a mollycoddling, indulgent, judgmental, or other negative inner narrative that can cause someone to feel stuck or unsatisfied in relationships.
The DISC personality test can be used to understand communication preferences. What is it?
According to the DISC personality test, people might be classified as Dominant, Influencer, Steady, or Cautious/Compliant. These people communicate in different ways and are motivated by various things. To avoid arguments and misunderstandings, it's critical to be aware of your own communication preferences and meet people where they are.
What guidance would you offer new managers to help them be considerate, inclusive, and encourage team engagement?
New managers should examine themselves closely, recognize their own prejudices and expectations, and coach in a way that prioritizes the greater good over individual preferences. They should also be conscious of the story they have created about each team member and open to changing it in order to get greater results.
TRANSCRIPT
Marcus Cauchi: Hello and welcome back once again to The Inquisitor Podcast with me, Marcus Cauchi. Today, my guest is a fourth time returning guest, Amy Woodall. So big round of applause, massive cheer. Amy is a Sandler trainer who specializes in dealing with difficult people and she is now the founder of a fabulous new business called Conscious Habit.
Marcus Cauchi: And her focus is on getting to the root of results. Amy. Welcome.
Amy Woodall: Thank you four times, I didn't even realize it had been four times Marcus.
Marcus Cauchi: Well that's cuz it's so much fun coming on and being interrogated by The Inquisitor.
Amy Woodall: Every time,
Quick 60-second rundown on your background
Marcus Cauchi: Every time. And you've still got your own nails. There you go. So Amy give people quick, 60-second rundown on your background, please.
Amy Woodall: So I've been with Sandler for close to a decade, not consecutively though. I came and I sucked and I left and I came back and, you know, tried to figure this thing out. And so for the last decade I've been doing coaching and training and, and consulting. And, you know, I kind of teased that I barely graduated the fifth grade.
Amy Woodall: And so my brain thinks really, really simply. And ultimately what I do is I just find like the root cause of what the real problem is. I hate putting bandaids on things. So that's really how my brain works and I'm very, just to the point, like I'm pretty real world. tell it like it is, but I can do it with love.
Amy Woodall: That's a little bit about me.
Marcus Cauchi: You're in the right place to do that.
Tell us about Conscious Habit
Marcus Cauchi: So tell us about conscious habit.
Amy Woodall: Conscious Habit is the brain child of that need for me to get to the root of what the cause is. And you know, my Sandler career, which I love Sandler, I will, you know, I'm still with Sandler, right? My Sandler career was sales and then feeling a little frustrated that, Hey, we can sell something, but then how do we teach the rest of the organization not to screw it up.
Amy Woodall: Then teaching customer care and being, well like, the biggest problem is they don't know how to deal with, you know, difficult people in situations and they're playing hots of potato. So then, you know, the creation of that. And then I have this aha of like, people don't know how to communicate with themselves and they're making everyone else responsible and holding the results of the business hostage based on that.
Amy Woodall: And so I started doing a, a lot of work on myself. I learned how to meditate. I went through a 200 hour certification to become a meditation teacher. And it really gave me this aha of, I just wanna teach people how to communicate with themselves because in turn they'll be able to collaborate. They'll be able to take ownership, you know. They will be less drama.
Amy Woodall: There's so much that comes from the root of learning, how to communicate with self.
What causes people to either fail to communicate or miscommunicate with themselves?
Marcus Cauchi: So talk to me about that then, what causes people to either fail to communicate or miscommunicate with themselves?
Amy Woodall: Uh, you know, I think it's a, it's a perception shift of, we kind of grow up thinking that life just happens.
Amy Woodall: Right? And that we are just the onlookers and if somebody behaves badly, it's their fault. And they're the jerk. And we, we kind of are just taught inherently to look at the world from the outside perspective, not recognizing that there's so much happening internally, that is shaping how we see the world externally.
Amy Woodall: So for example, if I have an internal fear. And I think we all do in different ways. If I have a fear that I'm not good enough, or I'm not worthy enough, I might project that on my role in the organization. And therefore I will carry around that biggest fear almost like with an expectation that I'm somehow gonna find that validation outside of me.
Amy Woodall: And so we're just looking at the equation on the wrong end. Right? If we learn how to look internally at where are my biggest frustrations or where are my biggest fears, how am I projecting those externally? That's where the conversation has to start. It's gotta go with looking in, not out.
What are the symptoms that other people will recognize?
Marcus Cauchi: Okay. If we are struggling to communicate with ourselves, if we are struggling to understand ourselves, what are the symptoms that other people will recognize?
Marcus Cauchi: So maybe they can help us rec uh, identify it
Amy Woodall: Well, by the way, I think that's always what's happening is it's easier for us to see it in others than it is for ourselves, by the way. There's a lot of blame. I mean, we've talked multiple times on the podcast about the Karpman's drama triangle, and you'll see people who just live in victim or persecutor mode.
Amy Woodall: It's always somebody else's fault. Somebody else is always to blame. Their, their boss is always a jerk. And there's patterns in their life that show up and they may seem different, right? Because the humans that show up are different or the scenarios seems different, but the patterns are very consistent. Work and relationships or health or various places where they're perpetuating those same internal fears.
Amy Woodall: Right? It's come, it's coming through with their results cuz they haven't gotten to the heart of it. So the things that you'll see as an onlooker are finger pointing blame. Behavior repeating, uh, lack of change. Just no ownership, essentially, no ownership. It's very difficult to have ownership if you can't recognize that you're part of the problem.
What's your advice to someone who is experiencing that?
Marcus Cauchi: So if you're finding yourself repeatedly in the same spiral of violence, if you like. So constantly having the same challenges, the same issues, Groundhog Day kind of arguments. What's your advice to someone who is experiencing that?
Amy Woodall: I think they gotta get to a point where they're like, well, what can I, I'm just tired of it.
Amy Woodall: Right? And obviously I'm the, there's a player. There's, there's somebody who happens to be the main character in every one of these events is a, the recognition I think. And I use the word conscious in my, in the title of conscious habits very intentionally. Consciousness to me is a combination of awareness, presence and ownership.
Amy Woodall: If I had to make, I could almost envision somewhat of an equation happening with, with what, you know, conscious habit equals, which is awareness plus that presence, plus that ownership divided by our ego and then multiply that by love. We could definitely get deep there, but I think the awareness has to come first.
Amy Woodall: The what can I do differently? And just watching how it plays out and whatever you, you gotta know what your challenge is. Maybe it is, you know, I'm constantly in re in relationships where people don't believe in me. I constantly have bosses where people don't believe in me. That is your signal of saying, hey, I don't believe in me and I'm projecting it on them.
Amy Woodall: So what can I tell myself? What's a new story I can tell myself? What's a new behavior that I can do that starts to change, you know, the, the internal, um, script, if you will, O of what I'm projecting to the world.
In terms of the script itself, what tone is the voice of someone who doesn't believe in themselves?
Marcus Cauchi: So in terms of the script itself, what sort of tone is, uh, the voice of someone who doesn't believe in themselves?
Amy Woodall: Well, it's never a nice voice, right? I think what we hear is that it either tries to convince us we are better than, or worse than the people around us. And the voice in the head, we, we, in our office, when I say we, I mean, we lovingly refer to that voice in the head as Jerry. Your roommate, Jerry. The voice that's constantly kind of chattering and saying, you know, lots of judgment on the world.
Amy Woodall: I'm better than them. They're worse than me, et cetera, you know. Or I'm worse than them. So it's never nice. And even if it is nice that voice in the head, it's, it's nice out of a place of judgment of like trying to make us feel like we are superior, et cetera, then than somebody else. So, you know, listening to the voice is an option.
Amy Woodall: It's not a requirement.
Marcus Cauchi: Okay. So you've got this narrative that's running in your head, these scripts. The tone of the voice is either molly coddling and permissive, judgmental, um, or, uh, the voice of the victim.
Amy Woodall: Mm-hmm.
Marcus Cauchi: And you are repeatedly finding yourself stuck, um, spinning your wheels or in, uh, dissatisfying relationships.
What are the challenges that you see people go through that set them back?
Marcus Cauchi: And the, the simple rule is in all of your dissatisfying relationships, the one constant is you. So at that point, you then have to recognize. It's up to me to own my 50% of all of this. If you're at that point, what are the challenges that you see people go through and that set them back because making that decision requires them to be incredibly vulnerable and take the risk of changing of taking responsibility.
Marcus Cauchi: So what, what are the things that you see set them back?
Amy Woodall: I think in general we tend, and I say we like just, I think people in general tend to have a little bit of an all or nothing outlook. Right? We've all done this. I, you know, with like, I'm starting that diet Monday and then Monday comes and you eat the cheeseburger and you're like, damnit.
Amy Woodall: Okay. I, well, next Monday. Right? So we kind of feel like one blip means we have to start all over again, or it's just completely useless or worthless. And so in this own, your 50 thing, and this is the, the road of learning period. You have to give yourself permission to screw it up because learning doesn't happen by doing the right actions at the right time.
Amy Woodall: Learning actually starts to happen by doing the wrong actions. And then recognizing that the wrong actions were taken. It's more in the, the hindsight awareness than it is the present moment action. Present moment action is when it becomes a, a habit, right? We don't have to think about it. So give yourself grace and permission to screw it up. Permission to not own your 50 and to blame someone else or repeat the pattern, but then say, oh, I see what I did there. Now, what could I have done differently if I could redo that and doing, and by the way, asking yourself that not with shame and blame, because that just feeds the voice in your head of I suck, and this is terrible and I'm never gonna get better.
Amy Woodall: And I'm gonna repeat these patterns. But doing it from a place of internal coaching. Internal coaching, holding yourself safely. And you know, what, what could I have done differently this next time? And how am I gonna be more aware of it, you know, when, when this presents itself again?
What sorts of tools and resources does one need in order to make this process eventually successful?
Marcus Cauchi: So what sorts of tools and resources, uh, does one need in order to make this process eventually successful?
Amy Woodall: Couple things that you could do, cause I think we all battled this voice in the head, Marcus, like in various ways, right? Some of us better than others. Some of us it's debilitating. An easy exercise that you guys have probably heard of cuz there's lots of people that teach this, do that life wheel exercise. Where if you've never heard of this, by the way guys, you could Google it.
Amy Woodall: Life wheel is essentially drawing out a circle and making eight slices. Think of it like a pizza, right? And you're making eight slices and each one of those slices gets some piece of your life. There's career. There's spirit, there's financial, there's health, there's relationships. There's fun and recreation.
Amy Woodall: There could be community like how you're serving your community. So you give a piece, you know, you give a job to every one of those pies and then you, you kind of scale it. And you're like, how am I doing? Am I at the, the best I wanna be in my career? If not, what's the story in my head that's keeping me from that happening?
Amy Woodall: Well, my boss doesn't believe in me. They won't give me a promotion, you know, whatever it is, write the story. That's the first thing, acknowledge it. And then have an idea rewrite, where do you want it to be. Well, what if that, weren't true? What if my boss did believe in me? What if you know, so it's the identification of where am I now versus where I wanna be.
Amy Woodall: And then what story do I need to change? And what behavior do I need to change? What do I want to no longer believe in? And I've talked about this on podcast before Marcus, the priming of the brain, right? The, eyes see what the brain believes. That's something that you've really gotta change when you recognize like, Hey, I, I wanna make some shifts and I wanna stop these patterns is what am I no longer willing to see as true.
Buddhist Maxim - Never complain about anything, even to myself
Marcus Cauchi: That's really interesting. Another fabulous exercise that feeds into a, a brilliant life Maxim, uh, which is a Buddhist Maxim, which is never complain about anything even to myself. And that means even in thought. And what you do is you take an index card and you divide it up into seven columns. And that's Monday through Sunday.
Marcus Cauchi: And whichever day you start, you start this exercise. That's the first day of on the card. And every time you whine, moan, bitch, complain, judge, grumble, then you just tally. And the objective is not to modify your behavior. It's to raise your awareness. Now when you do this, it's really interesting. I did this about six, seven years ago.
Marcus Cauchi: And the first day I think I had about 27 grumbles that I caught myself out. It was probably more if I'm being honest. The next day I had three, uh, sorry, nine day after that had three. So that was Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, the next day, 17, the next day, 21. Next day 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, and then back into the teens and in the twenties.
Marcus Cauchi: So have a stab where I was when it jumped back up again.
Amy Woodall: Were, were you at the pub?
Marcus Cauchi: Nope, I was at home. Oh, with whom?
Amy Woodall: With your spouse? With your lovely wife and children?
Amy Woodall: Exactly.
Marcus Cauchi: And these are the people I meant to--
Amy Woodall: Love right?
Marcus Cauchi: There you go. Yeah. Now the problem is that when we, we, we tend to get dragged into these fights and these judgements, especially where we are heavily attached.
Marcus Cauchi: So I find it much easier when I'm, uh, at work, not to complain or grumble. I can just see it for what it is. And my grumbling equation is very low. But at the weekend it often spiked because the kids leave shit all over the floor. The dog drools on the floor. Things don't go according to plan when I'm at work, I I'm in control.
Marcus Cauchi: So what's really interesting about this exercise is that if you do this over a period of about six weeks, your awareness level of that internal dialogue is massively heightened and you'd start getting a judgment radar. Um, so the minute you start or the, the moment you start to think about judging something, you start to catch it before you do.
Marcus Cauchi: And what I found was that I just suddenly became happier. That Buddhist mantra "Never complain about anything even to yourself" is a mantra for happiness. And it's incredibly potent because when you apply it to your life, whether it's work or home or anywhere else, then all of a sudden you have control of your emotional reaction.
Marcus Cauchi: You're choosing to respond in a particular way instead of reacting in a particular way. So that fits very neatly with what Amy's been talking about.
Amy Woodall: I love that exercise too, Marcus, cuz I think a, it forces us, that's a real own your shit, own your 50 opportunity to just look and say, you know, where am I pointing at the world?
Amy Woodall: I wish we could wave a magic wand and just everyone could understand and see that happiness is an inside job. It is not an external event. Happiness is not an external event period. If that's what we're waiting on, that is why we have so many ups and downs. It truly is an inside job. And the less happy we feel internally, the less happy we see the world.
Amy Woodall: And the more we blame the world for how we choose to behave. So the minute that we're on our kids ask because they didn't do their homework or things are a mess, right? It's not really about that scenario. That's a projection of, I'm not feeling good inside and I've gotta find reasons outside to blame for it, cuz I've not taken the moment to take ownership or awareness over it.
Amy Woodall: So I love that exercise.
Irrational Mathematics
Marcus Cauchi: It's really interesting because it goes to another level as well. When you look at how emotions work, you have prejudice, negative preference, negative expectation, filtered through that drama triangle. You get the reality that you perceive not necessarily what reality is. Um, I have a friend Martin Lucas who's developed a whole branch of mathematics called Irrational Mathematics, which looks at why, um, for the individual, whatever irrational thought they have is real.
Marcus Cauchi: So negative preference, negative expectation and negative perception. As compared to the reality that we perceive equals an emotional reaction. But when you operate from the winner's triangle, you don't bring a negative preference. It's positive. Your expectation is positive and you're not bringing prejudice, which is your prejudgment.
Marcus Cauchi: And you compare that through your reality filter. And now you have a rational response, so you can choose how you feel. You can choose what action you take as in direct response to an external stimulus or an internal stimulus. It could be how someone's spoken to you, an outcome that you were hoping for or not hoping for, but then it becomes the choice.
Marcus Cauchi: And that evens things out so that you reduce the level of volatility into your life. Because I think one of the things that breaks those habits is those massive peaks and troughs. And that's a, a catalyst for you dragging your sorry, ass into a fight that doesn't need to be had. So tell me this, in Sandler you talk about, uh, identity and role and you earlier equated it to spirit and ego.
Marcus Cauchi: So talk to me about that concept. Let's go into a little bit of depth about that.
Amy Woodall: The spirit and ego stuff.
Marcus Cauchi: Yeah.
Amy Woodall: So, you know, if we think of that idea, spirit, by the way, has so much connotation wrapped around it. Some people think of it in a religious context. Some people think of it in like a woo woo. Like kind of out there.
DISC - Dominance, Influence, Steadiness, Conscientiousness
Amy Woodall: I just wanna think, I think of spirit of just like the, the internal connection to yourself. The connection to you. And if you want to equate that to something else, then it, it feels right for you then totally do that. But this connection to self of knowing I'm good regardless, you know. Like I'm okay regardless of what happens on the outside. And when we can shift perception to knowing our okayness is infinite, it's it doesn't change. It's always there. Then we rely less on our ego to drive us throughout the world. And ego shows up in so many ways. I've started talking about ego when it comes to DISC.
Amy Woodall: So every single DISC style has an ego MO. Every single one. And if we're operating with our worthiness hanging in the balance of that, ego's MO, then we are gonna have those peaks and valleys. Like you talked about like the, we can have the extreme happiness, but it's based on an external event and that event goes away.
Amy Woodall: And so then we fall down again. We just never feel good unless life outside is happening well. So like ego's MO if I can go to disk for a moment, right. Do you know that dominance, the D's, the ego's Mo is winning. It is success. It is if I'm not successful and achieve, achieve, achieve, then I'm not good enough.
Amy Woodall: So the ego fights hard to prove its worthiness through achievement. And eventually those Ds feel burned out. They feel like, okay, what's the next level of success? I thought I would be happy when I made six figures and I made it now. I'm not happy. Well that's because your happiness lies in the balance of your ego's MO. For Is, it is being liked. I need everyone to be my friend and I need everybody to like me. And if someone rejects them, if someone is not excited about their, their ideas, then the voice in the head, Jerry, the ego starts to say, oh, "You're not good enough, they don't like you or they're the problem, yeah it's them."
Amy Woodall: And so they let their feeling good be based on how other people treat them rather than knowing that they're okay. The S is MO is in helping. And they end up being the martyr and their thought is I'm not worthy unless I'm helping people. I have to prove my worthiness through helping. When other people take advantage of that or don't reciprocate it, or, you know, whatever the case might be, aren't appreciative of it.
Amy Woodall: Then they say, I should be ashamed and humiliated. I'm not good enough. And the Cs are based on perfection. If I make mistakes, if I don't make mistakes, I'll be good enough. I can just prove to the world I'm worthy if I do everything well. And when they make a mistake, it's, they let it hit their spirit. And ego and spirit are not the same things.
Amy Woodall: Ego is what tries to take us away from the fact that we are okay all the time. It tries to, to kind of convince us that, you know, we're not good enough or we're better than et cetera. So I think it's important to know what is your ego's MO and where do you need to call bullshit and recognize that your validation does not, it does, it cannot be confirmed by anything outside of yourself. It's gotta be an inside job.
Don't assume that people will understand what you're trying to communicate to them If you don't understand yourself
Marcus Cauchi: And for those of you who are not familiar with DISC, uh, these are Dominant personalities. Is are Influencers, and they tend to be driven by fun, being liked, Ss are Steady related. So these are people who are typically they're slow and steady.
Marcus Cauchi: They're communication style is one that's very inclusive. Their favorite pronoun is we or us. It's never I, which is a dominance. Favorite pronoun for a high influencer. It's me, me, me, me, me. They wanna be the center of attention. And for high Cs, these are cautious or compliant types. They're very often detail orientated.
Marcus Cauchi: Ds And Cs are very results orientated. Uh, I as and Ss a very people orientated. Uh, Dominance and Influencers are fast-paced big picture. Typically in their communication style and, um, Steady relators and cautious, compliant types tend to be very detailed. They like stuff in writing. They tend not to make decisions in a hurry.
Marcus Cauchi: So if you put the, uh, the ego MO in the context of that as well. Often high Ds are driving towards an outcome. And, um, they're a bit like, uh, a bull in a China shop. There's, uh, often the worst characteristic of a high dominant personality is that they're a bit like a Sherman tank going through a Belgian village in 1939.
Marcus Cauchi: They don't turn just as there's a house in the way, and they leave this wake of destruction behind them. High influences are often a bit flaky when they're very extreme. And because they want to be the center of attention because they want to be light. They say yes to everything anyone asks them to do, but then they let people down.
Marcus Cauchi: Steady relators are all about others. They hate being in the limelight. Um, I had a client once and they had a very high steady relator. He actually, uh, had a Royal Charter. So whenever Prince Charles wanted to have Diana Ross come to sing at a dinner party, he would organize it. And, um, he was 10 years at this company and he was so much hated the limelight.
Marcus Cauchi: Uh, they were throwing a party for him and he shined down a drain pipe from a second story window to get away from the party cuz he couldn't get out the door and he ended up falling and breaking his thigh. And compliance are they're driven um, by the result they don't like talking personally. So again, you've gotta be really careful when you're communicating with people.
Marcus Cauchi: And you also need to understand your communication preferences, because there is a danger that you will communicate in the style you feel most comfortable with. So when you find yourself in situations of conflict or disagreement or not feeling understood, this really comes back down to Amy's critical point, which is that if you want other people to understand you, you have to meet them where they are.
Marcus Cauchi: And then gently bring them back to a place where you're both comfortable. But don't assume that people will understand what you're trying to communicate to them. If you don't understand yourself, because that's, I think is one of the biggest root causes for conflict that's perfectly avoidable. Fair?
Amy Woodall: Absolutely. Yep. That it is. You first worry about you. If we worried about ourselves twice, as much as we worried about other people, how different the world would be? I don't know if you've heard or not Marcus, but we've got an election coming up here in the US.
Marcus Cauchi: Really just completely washed over me. No, no. Haven't noticed.
Amy Woodall: Yeah, little divisive, um, over here in, uh, in our land and, and that's what I keep thinking. I try to stay neutral, even though I have my own views, but I can stay very neutral and detached from it because my ego isn't wrapped up. I don't need, again, when we see things like that happen of like, I have to be right, I have to be right.
Amy Woodall: That's your ego talking saying, if I'm not right, I'm not good. If I'm not right, I'm not valid. And so, because I, I really take full responsibility and live everything that I teach and really practice. And I'm not a hundred percent. Let me tell you I fall off all the time, but I catch it faster than I used to.
Amy Woodall: I can step back and kind of be like, wow, it's so interesting how they're pointing the finger, but the behavior is really mirroring. It's really mirroring each other. They just think it's so different, cuz their ideas are different. And if they just worried twice as much about themselves and how they showed up, how different the world might be then saying I'm putting everything on you and you're the, you need to change.
Amy Woodall: And you're the, you're the problem. Man, we can't get anywhere with that idea.
Marcus Cauchi: So in the context of a work environment, If you are coaching managers,
Amy Woodall: Mmm-hmm.
Marcus Cauchi: Cause, uh, in my experience, often managers manage and train and recruit in their own image and they assume people are motivated and driven by the same things they are.
If you're a new manager, what advice do you give to them in order to make sure that they own their 50?
Marcus Cauchi: If you're a new manager, what advice do you give to them in order to make sure that they own their 50? That they are respectful and they're inclusive so that people feel like their voice matters. Because I mean, ultimately where we're headed with this conversation, I think is around engagement. So let let's deal with managers first.
Amy Woodall: Well, and the manager has to take a real deep look inside of themselves too, and say, Okay. You know, what might I project onto the world around me? Because we have our very specific ideas of right and wrong. And like you mentioned before, right? They're through our lens, we're filtering it through our lens and, and it's based on our experiences and our emotional preferences and all of that stuff.
Amy Woodall: And so knowing themselves, wholly and deeply, knowing what their expectations are, and being coached whether or not those are appropriate expectations to have for all. Or, you know, are they just the right expectations for themselves? Here's how I coach managers now, cuz you know, I'll be brought in to, to help teams collaborate more effectively and really create ownership and all of this stuff.
Amy Woodall: And when we're talking about going into managing the first thing we've gotta teach them is, you know, when to address what behavior. And so the, the filter to consider is, do I need to have this conversation or am I coaching based on personal preference? Or am I coaching based on greater good outcome?
Amy Woodall: They really gotta understand what their definitions of each one of those are, because so many managers coach from a personal preference place. It's not how I would do it, and therefore, I'm gonna tell you, you shouldn't do it that way. Now are there best practices? A hundred percent, but we've gotta know how to differentiate between greater good and personal preference.
Amy Woodall: That's when we lead and manage with ego and not really with the spirit of the work in mind. If you're looking at your team, and I think this is helpful for veteran managers too, you know, back to that, what's your story? What is the story you're telling yourself about everyone on your team and where might you need to change your personal narrative so that you can change the outcome? Because you can't get to a different outcome if you're so committed to the narrative that you have attached to that person.
Amy Woodall: And I'm not saying that the narrative may not be, uh, right. Maybe it is, but that is one of the few things that we can personally own and control. Maybe my narrative is Linda is a pain in the ass and you will never see Linda any other way. She can never get to success until you're willing to say, I'm willing to see this differently.
Amy Woodall: I'm willing to approach her differently. So new manager or old, whatever, really check yourself in your own script, check your potential projections that could come out, you know. Is it greater good? Is it ego? Know your team inside and out. DISC is a great tool to utilize and it's lots of great providers out there. And then, you know, really identify the story that's wrapped around that that may or may not be true.
It's not just a job function, the best sales people genuinely care
Marcus Cauchi: I'd recently did a very interesting podcast with Erin Bell from Degreed and Michael Puck from Cronos. And we were talking there about employee engagement. And one of the things that came up, uh, Michael came up with this was early on in the relationship is to have a conversation about what's your most important life experience and have people share that early on in the conversation. Because I think what many people lack is that human touch and seeing people as something other than a resource and you share as much as you feel comfortable. But the idea is that you start sharing key influential life experiences with the rest of the team. And every time he's done this and I I've done something similar in the past as well.
Marcus Cauchi: Suddenly people have a newfound respect for other people around them because now they have some human connection. And I, I think far too often, we just see people as a resource. We just see them as a job function and the best managers, the best sales people that I've ever come across genuinely care. I was interviewing, uh, Caroline Penner.
Marcus Cauchi: Yesterday. And she's an amazing woman. She started working at Splunk in January this year, got cancer, was in chemo all the way throughout this year and has still managed to achieve 300% of quota. And she's still going at it cuz there's another two months to go. So who knows where she's going to end up by the end of this year?
Because we are told that business is business, don't get personal?
Marcus Cauchi: But what was really fascinating about her was her willingness to communicate with everybody. Who's part of the, uh, the sales and buying process and has human to human conversations. She cares about them, their family, their welfare, their wellbeing. And I think that the ego often gets in the way. Because we are told that business is business, don't get personal.
Marcus Cauchi: I fundamentally disagree with that. The older I get, I think a little bit wiser, that stuff actually matters. And it, it is the defining point of difference. Your thoughts?
Amy Woodall: By the way, I think those old ideas of business is business, first of all, the world of COVID living in a world of COVID I think has dramatically shifted the authen- authenticity we're bringing to the table because if we are working from home, you're hearing kids in the background. There it's not, we don't have the ability to separate home from work like we did before. It's integrated. And therefore we can see that we're bringing our whole selves. And I do think the beauty in this is that it has improved our.
Amy Woodall: We are willing to give some grace. Um, you know, I, my dogs were going crazy earlier and Marcus was really great and gave me a lot of grace cuz it's kind of the world we're living in. That kind of stuff is gonna happen. And I think this idea of learning how to love unconditionally in our workplace, the same way that we do in our homes.
Amy Woodall: I was doing coaching with a client the other day, and he had just a phenomenal breakthrough that just made me so happy for him because he he's gotten to this place mentally where he's like, Amy, I think I've, I understand this separation of spirit and ego. Like I really think that I truly get it. And the moment I got it, it was like all of the stress I thought I had on this role side, you know, where my ego was wrapped up. It's like, I don't, it doesn't even matter. It does- it's not that I don't care. I'm not gonna drive hard in those roles, but I just don't have the drama. I'm just not emotionally hooked to the drama cuz like I know I'm good.
Amy Woodall: I was so happy for him. And he said, in this stuff, like he's really committed to teaching it to his kids. And he's so passionate because you know, he really like feels the excitement and the emotional shift for him. He wants to teach it to his kids. But he's, he's a more doubtful in his ability to teach it to his team.
Amy Woodall: And what I pointed out to him was the difference is unconditional love. Because when you unconditionally love your children, even if you coach them and they don't take it well, you don't take it personally and you still are gonna be like, well, I love them enough to still, you know, have that conversation. To still say it to them, my kids, whatever I'm gonna give them a, a pep talk.
Amy Woodall: They always say, here comes mom's Ted talk. Like here comes her inspirational message. But you love 'em enough to do it. Even if they reject it. Our teams, it's not the same. But we can practice it. Can we practice unconditional love of like, I know you're such a good human? I know you're a good human and I wanna get to know you as a human and the role you bring to the table, man, is that the icing on the top.
Amy Woodall: And we can coach that when you're having a bad day and that role, we know that it's just, you know, it's based on something else that's happening. It doesn't, you're not inherently a terrible human being cuz you had a bad day. And I think the practice of that learn to love your teams, not just see them as tools as you mentioned, because , you definitely get more out of your team.
Amy Woodall: The more that you put in with them emotionally. And with that, with that intimate connection.
Dyed in the wool, cold-hearted, blood-thirsty capitalist
Marcus Cauchi: Well, th this then brings us to that whole piece around creating highly engaged teams and team members. Michael quoted some fascinating research that was conducted on the S & P 500 between 2010 and 2016. And I, if you are a dyed in the wool, cold-hearted blood-thirsty capitalist, pay heed to these numbers. Because I challenge you with your current modus operandi, around management leadership, and investing to match numbers, even coming close to this.
Marcus Cauchi: Highly engaged employees compared with all other employees generate 430% more profit per employee. 290% higher revenue per employee. They have a 40% lower churn rate. They are 20% more productive in every working day and their share price grew as an average of 300% higher than the average. Now, if you want to see good top and bottom line results, this stuff is not optional.
Marcus Cauchi: This is the baseline standard and yes, you should be a decent human being. But if your staff, if your team do not feel like you care about them as a person, if they don't feel like you are trying to help. If they feel that you are serving yourself, that you are going to throw them under the bus at the first sign of any pushback, then shame on you.
Marcus Cauchi: Absolutely shame on you. Because this stuff costs nothing. It simply means slow down and get your ego out of the way. One of the things that we talked about in the preamble, it was around the difference between, uh, an environment that was filled with drama versus one that is filled with love. Now, again, dyed in the wool capitalist will probably say we're not running a bloody holiday camp and what's all this love, uh, rubbish. What, what do you mean by love?
You are either building a culture of love or a culture of fear
Amy Woodall: I know. And, and trust me because I'm, there is a part of me that kind of looks at it as like, oh, that's a little too soft, right? Like what do we want people to like, hold hands and sing kumbaya.
Amy Woodall: But man is that the foundation of all the best results that we have. And if we think about really good feelings, they all stem from that place. Happiness, joy success. You know, at its truest form, they stem from a place of love where all of the negative stuff, right? Competition and like, uh, drama, it all stems from a place of fear.
Amy Woodall: And if so, if we are simplifying the cultures that we're building. You are either building a culture of love or a culture of fear. And to your point, Marcus, the engagement that happens from that is going to either have a, you know, create the results that you want, or you're gonna constantly be missing the result and pointing your finger at the wrong end of the problem.
Amy Woodall: The problem may or may not be the activity that they're doing. The problem could be. The environment in which we are encouraging people to, to work in. Right? So are you developing a culture of love or a con or a culture of fear? And it's as simple as that, now it has to start at the top. I mean, one of the things I've been working on with leadership teams, which is kind of radical, but the results that they've seen, I, I, I love getting the letters of how collaborative they've become, because I actually walk them through an exercise of giving love to one another.
Amy Woodall: There is a loving kindness is a meditation practice that the Buddhist monks have practiced for years. A loving kindness meditation, where you sit and first you send love to yourself because if we don't have it for ourselves, it's pretty damn hard to give away what you don't have for yourself. Right? You can't give a, a poor man's shoes if you're barefoot.
Amy Woodall: So you gotta give it to yourself first. And then you start to picture the other people in the room and, and I've sat and said, you know, we're gonna send Bob love. And Bob, you know, is this guy who is probably like, who the hell is this woman? Where did you guys find her? But in the end, the results that happen from learning to start from that place of let's build a foundation of love and trust rather than a foundation of fear and blame.
Amy Woodall: Major results. And I worked with this team prior to COVID happening. And when COVID came along, they were closer than ever. And they were able to continue to grow their results because they had each other's back. They had this foundation of love and concern and, you know, just really giving a damn owning their shit and giving a damn if we're being honest, those are two good places to be.
Amy Woodall: And the results followed from that. And they were able to keep their teams engaged because they focused on that foundation of love for self and love for one another.
How do you allay those fears so that people are willing to share those most important life experiences?
Marcus Cauchi: This is an interesting dilemma for people because so often they will struggle to be vulnerable enough to open up. They feel that someone might use that information against them.
Marcus Cauchi: And I, if they open up about something that's deeply personal, or that may have been some youthful indiscretion, then they worry that someone will take advantage of that. So in your experience, how do you allay those fears so that people are willing to share those most important life experiences that they are willing to open up and talk about a death or drug addiction or alcoholism or a car accident, which they wouldn't ordinarily have done because they'd been playing their cards close to their chest.
Amy Woodall: I think you just have to do it scared. Like you, you have to take the risk in order to get the reward. And so if you're holding back in fear of what's gonna happen if I share, then there's no change that can happen from that. Right? If everyone else is willing to share their experiences and you are guiding with fear, Then you're not gonna have the same connection to everyone else.
Amy Woodall: So I think the first thing is let it go. Owning your 50, owning your part, owning your shit here is I'm gonna do my part to make the connection and what they choose to do with it is on them. And I cannot own with they choose to do with it. I cannot own if they choose to take it somewhere else, I can't own if they choose to use it against me. All I can, all I can own after I share is how I choose to feel about it afterwards. And it, it is this incredible thing when you put so much of your focus on internally and feeling good and, you know, disconnecting from ego, how you don't give a damn if somebody's gonna go use it against you, cuz you're like, I know I'm fine regardless. It really does change the fear that you have on external events. When you take control of the internal stuff.
Marcus Cauchi: This thing brings us back to that whole piece around vulnerability and courage. If you are going to make lasting sustainable worthwhile change happen in your life, and you recognize that you own your reaction, you own your actions and your thoughts.
If something goes wrong, what's the first question a manager should ask?
Marcus Cauchi: If something goes wrong, what's the first question a manager should ask?
Amy Woodall: Do you have an example? What comes to mind when you say something goes wrong? What are we thinking of? So we can-U
Marcus Cauchi: Um, they screw up, they have a car crash, they lose a customer.
Amy Woodall: Mm-hmm I think it's do a well check. Hey, how you doing, how you feeling about that?
Amy Woodall: As you're looking at it, what might you do differently the next time? You know, I think if we use every, you know, experience that somebody we're we're humans we're gonna make mistakes and we should have that in our mind as managers and as leaders, as CEOs, whatever it is. Hey, there is no failproof product um, in the entire world. There is not a product that we sell that's failproof. There is no failproof human. So we need to have an idea that I'm gonna have to manage mistakes and they're gonna happen. They're gonna happen. So we can't take a mistake and then expect that to be something that we like tag onto that human being forever and always, and make 'em pay for.
Amy Woodall: And they gotta feel bad about it. Instead let's coach to it. What was the lesson that we learned? Hey, what would you do differently the next time? Let's let's coach ourselves through that. So hold them safely and help them own because engagement is a 50-50 thing, right? There's only like the manager has their role, the company and culture has their role, but the individual has their role on how they're willing, what they're willing to do with it.
Amy Woodall: So coach them to own their part of it and get agreement on, you know, how they're gonna do it differently the next time and love 'em through it. Just like you would your child, right? If a child makes a mistake. Now, of course, as parents, we might look back and wish we had handled it a bit differently, but a child makes a mistake.
Amy Woodall: It doesn't mean we question the love we have for that child. You know, Hey, you bring home an F on a, on a test. I'm not gonna be like, wow, should I really love this kid an F on a test? I don't know if he has what it takes to be my kid. I don't know.
Marcus Cauchi: Mm-hmm.
Amy Woodall: Should I trade him in? What should happen from here?
Amy Woodall: Um, we don't do that with our children. We, we coach to become better at the next test and we've gotta take the same mindset, you know, in the workplace. I think we overcomplicate things by creating separation in our lives. So being like here's my home life and here's how I operate at home. And here's how I operate in this place.
Amy Woodall: And here's how I operate here. But in truth, what works works everywhere. What works in showing up with an authenticity at home works the same way in our workplace. The division we have created has made things more complicated. Simplify and things become easier. You're already doing it right in one arena of your life.
Amy Woodall: It's not that hard to translate it into another.
What are you struggling with at the moment?
Marcus Cauchi: Excellent. Tell me this. What are you struggling with at the moment?
Amy Woodall: Ooh, I think it is, um, connection at times, you know, in the world of COVID we're so disconnected and I miss audiences and I miss speaking and, and I've had a chance to do a ton of training with clients through virtual, but the, the energy is different.
Amy Woodall: Right? And so I'm working on. How do I get my ego out of that? How do I get my ego out of it has to be this way in order for me to feel good. So it's been a good challenge for me where I, to, to where I need to own my shit in this area of how can I feel good regardless?
If you had a golden ticket and you could go back and advise theta age 23, about something should have probably ignored, what advice would you give her?
Amy Woodall: And if you had a golden ticket and you could go back and advise theta age 23, about something should have probably ignored. What advice would you give her?
Amy Woodall: Oh my gosh. It would be an Eckhart Tolle quote, which is "If small things have power over you, that's exactly what you become. Small."
Marcus Cauchi: Ah, that's fairly profound. So don't sweat the small stuff.
Amy Woodall: Exactly. You become small and inherently you become small if you sweat the small stuff.
What are you watching, reading, listening to at the moment that you think other people would value?
Marcus Cauchi: Okay. What are you watching, reading, listening to at the moment that you think other people would value?
Amy Woodall: So I recently have a subscription of this thing called Gaia. Have you ever heard of Gaia, Marcus? It's like this-
Marcus Cauchi: Mother earth.
Amy Woodall: Yeah. It's like this. Yeah, mother there's like the spiritual Netflix. And so that's been fun for me.
Amy Woodall: I really love all things. Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joe Dispenza. So for those listening who are curious, he is a guy who really teaches, teaches us how our thoughts can make us sick and they can make us well. And he does a ton on, you know, biology and the, the science behind how we own our shit, essentially internally.
Amy Woodall: Very fascinating stuff.
Marcus Cauchi: Have you read Bruce Lipton's Biology of the Cells and, uh, Biology of Emotion. Sorry.
Amy Woodall: So I'm listening, I'm watching Bruce Lipton on Gaia right now. He has a series. That's all about that. It's all so fascinating. Our thoughts are so powerful. It's incredible to learn.
Marcus Cauchi: Uh, absolutely. And the, the direct connection between the gut and the brain and the emotional triggers and, you know, learning to trust your gut. Cause I, I think one of the most valuable lessons I learned from Sandler was to trust my gut, but learn to calibrate it as well. And recognize that, you know, a gut feeling is not necessarily always the same. Sometimes it'll be a word of caution. Sometimes it'll be an, an, an indication that you should go all in, but learn to trust your.
Amy Woodall: One other thing I'll share before we kind of take off here is I recently went through a certification through the Heart Math Institute. Fascinating. They do a lot of really fascinating studies, the Heart Math Institute, and they're are brain cells and our gut, there are brain cells in our heart. So there is something to have in gut, heart, and head coherence that allows us to be more profound, more connected to ourselves, but more connected to others. That allows us to make better decisions and to be more mindful and, and logical. So many things. And if you think about it, what is the one place in the body that you have never heard of cancer being? Where is the one location in the body you have never heard of a cancer existing?
Marcus Cauchi: I'm guessing the heart.
Amy Woodall: The heart. There is no such thing as heart cancer. Never heard of a heart cancer.
Amy Woodall: And, and it is this, this place of consciousness that resides within us, which is why I'm so obsessed with, with love.
How can people get a hold of you?
Marcus Cauchi: So on that note, thank you so much. How can people get a hold of you?
Amy Woodall: Uh, find me on LinkedIn. That's one of the best places I, I put out those videos and Amy Woodall on LinkedIn or with the Conscious Habit, it's amy@theconscioushabit.com.
Marcus Cauchi: Wonderful. Amy Woodall. Thank you.
Amy Woodall: Thank you.
Marcus Cauchi: This is Marcus CauchiI signing off once again from The Inquisitor Podcast. If you found this conversation enlightening, then please do get in touch with either Amy or myself. And you can email me at marcus@laughs-last.com or get in touch via LinkedIn.
Marcus Cauchi: And if you think you'd be a good guest or you know, someone who would be, then please do connect us. And in the meantime, like, comment, share and subscribe. Thanks a lot. Happy selling. Bye-bye.
